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heraclitis · **Joined:** Jul 17, 2010 **Posts:** 1375

agnes wrote:

heraclitis wrote:

agnes wrote:

i appreciate your thoughts. if i can gather some of mine, for whatever they are worth...the us and them mentality (in the christian world i knew) (from birth) was not centered around (or divided by) race or nationality or military might. it was a case (another case?) of this is the one true organization of god, and you shall be no part of the world. we learned of the nazi camps (for one thing) and if it should ever come to it...one must stand up and face death. all the wars and riots were signs that the end of the world (not the earth, but the old world) was at hand. culminating in the great battle of har meggido. if one wasn't part of the organization, one was considered lost. and the end was always near. i would look around and like people (they did not seem evil to me) who were not part of the organization and had trouble wrapping my head around it, that unless they would buy into all of the dogma (that i myself didn't quite understand), they were lost. there are gaps that are hard for me to fill in,,, but i had trouble understanding all this, and still somehow i felt i was wrong, and so i figured i must also be among the "lost". because even though i was "there" i didn't really get it. so i felt i was among the doomed.
it kind of messes with your head i guess, is what i am saying

I know exactly what you mean.

In my case it was even those that seemed to buy in (again the reference to Black America who often appeared quite christian but they were unacceptable in many of my social experiences) and I also remember seeing church sponsored anti-catholic films even though I had cousins who are catholic. In those days, they were actually the church of the devil (now catholics and evangelicals have even banded together with (oh no,not that) the jews). None of it made or makes sense!

i remember the phrase "the devil's house"!
so i see a church and i am like, "so is that 'the devil's house'?" with such a straight forward blunt question for a sunny drive in the country i guess, i wonder if i was even 7, the answer a sort of haltingly, sort of, "mm-hmm" which i was plainly trying to wrap my head around, just mystified me to the point of being humourous i am pretty sure.

but hey, i got a small porcelain disc my grandmom painted, a simple country scene
includes one of them quaint little country churches (denomination unknown)sort of in the back, and an entrance into the scene as a whole, is one of them firewood fences i guess you could call it, etc...anyway, i really like it...go figure?

Why do they need it? Why do people need religion? In America, it is like politics...Oh Ya, the tea party sounds cool...I am all on with that! Then you say...What are you on with? ... And it is "Obama is a socialist". The answer is Romney is not? "How can he be a socialists, he is a republican?" Of course you want to say "are you an absolute idiot when it comes to American history? Are you totally unfamiliar with America's tax structures or how Congress appropriates money? You want to go Dumb ASS? My personal favorite is "I am an Anarchist, I am voting Romney!" Not that voting Obama espouses anarchy but WTF? Plato wins, humans are to stupid to govern themselves! (Can I get an amen from the amen section?)

agnes · **Joined:** Sep 15, 1999 **Posts:** 8348

what do i know?

nortonkevin · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:58 pm

heraclitis wrote:

Why do they need it? Why do people need religion? In America, it is like politics...Oh Ya, the tea party sounds cool...I am all on with that! Then you say...What are you on with? ... And it is "Obama is a socialist". The answer is Romney is not? "How can he be a socialists, he is a republican?" Of course you want to say "are you an absolute idiot when it comes to American history? Are you totally unfamiliar with America's tax structures or how Congress appropriates money? You want to go Dumb ASS? My personal favorite is "I am an Anarchist, I am voting Romney!" Not that voting Obama espouses anarchy but WTF? Plato wins, humans are to stupid to govern themselves! (Can I get an amen from the amen section?)

Praise the lord and pass the ammunition!!!

(amen section: "amen!")

heraclitis · **Joined:** Jul 17, 2010 **Posts:** 1375

nortonkevin wrote:

heraclitis wrote:

Why do they need it? Why do people need religion? In America, it is like politics...Oh Ya, the tea party sounds cool...I am all on with that! Then you say...What are you on with? ... And it is "Obama is a socialist". The answer is Romney is not? "How can he be a socialists, he is a republican?" Of course you want to say "are you an absolute idiot when it comes to American history? Are you totally unfamiliar with America's tax structures or how Congress appropriates money? You want to go Dumb ASS? My personal favorite is "I am an Anarchist, I am voting Romney!" Not that voting Obama espouses anarchy but WTF? Plato wins, humans are to stupid to govern themselves! (Can I get an amen from the amen section?)

Praise the lord and pass the ammunition!!!

(amen section: "amen!")

That person does own many guns.

heraclitis · **Joined:** Jul 17, 2010 **Posts:** 1375

agnes wrote:

what do i know?

I know, I know..my discussion with the rhetorical self was not elegant! I will have to work on my elegance in the future!

agnes · **Joined:** Sep 15, 1999 **Posts:** 8348

card :)

heraclitis · **Joined:** Jul 17, 2010 **Posts:** 1375

It seems to me people are always grasping for things. There must be some kind of resolution, some kind of logical sensical resolution. It is like that song is that all there is? Then let's go dancing and break out the booze and have a ball. I read the first letters of Paul (the apostle not the Beatle) last night. The first question he had to deal with is "hey, people are dying and there is no resolution. what's up with that?" His answer of course is "you gotta be patient, resolution is just around the corner!" Then he gets the "hey, these jewish christians insist we gotta cut off our foreskins and we can't eat meat unless the animals are sacrificed per the jewish rituals, what's up with that?" Paul is like "now, it's cool, don't listen to those guys, I got the mainline as far as gentiles are concerned, I got you covered and it will all be taken care of when the resolution comes! don't cut off your foreskins and go ahead and eat Greek meat!" Then the next bunch starts saying, "hey man we are horny...we are doing all kind of crazy sexual deviance on the sly because we been abstaining, but sometimes we have a glass wine and well its like, abstain this right here like this and that, you know!" Paul is like, "hey its cool, just get married and assign yourself to one person. As a couple, do what is natural for you to do, follow your god given inclinations, just respect each other and don't be whoring around all over the place, then he won't hold it against you when the great resolution comes!"

Not a lot of bad advice there it is just this great resolution, what is it?

These are the earliest known written records on christianity...this is what the people are saying.

I know popes and priests and ministers hate it when athiests read this stuff because they can't interpret it for me, but it is pretty straight forward so far?

It is like when the rich tell me its important that they stay rich because it benefits everyone! I buy in to it when they tell me it is better to have a few incredibly wealthy individuals and a bunch of poor dumb bastards thinking they can be incredibly wealthy someday. It is simple free market capitalism. The poor dumb bastards should not expect so much from life. They don't have inalienable rights, that is just words on a page. There is no guarantee of dignity..your a poor dumb bastard, what the hell do you expect? You should aspire to your position in the great cosmic scheme...if you are just a poor dumb bastard...then that is what you are. Go ahead and dream of wealth and medical care and dignity and so on etc etc and wow! but don't expect anything and live within your means without expecting anything!

At least these rich people have resolution in their lives and they can say to the poor dumb bastards...look, you can have resolution in your next life, (dumb ass!)!

Goofus · **Posted:** Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:59 am

heraclitis wrote:

nortonkevin wrote:

Yes, Be-ing! Simplicity in its purest form. And talk about simple......Ockam would probably say something like "The experiential existance of a state of be-ing, refined energy and spirit, an inhabitant interwoven in mutual entanglement and coexistance with the present moment.......that is the "simplest path to spiritual meaning. Lots of the stuff that we call "life" is constantly presenting obstacles, trials and compromises in our attempt to accomplished "pure" be-ing. I'm O.K. with that -I'd settle for just a little more of those moments, just a few more......

Meaning is more complicated. By definition, the meaning of [our] be-ing and the experience of be-ing are the same thing. To "find" a personal or even universal "meaning" of our be-ing would necessitate seperating the two states of existance, so that we could sort of peek in on ourselves. But since we have broken the dichotimous bond that allows the be-ing to exist as one with the moment, the scene we observe is not a true one. It's like those spoken lines from the George Harrison song:

The soul does not exist, it is existence itself.
The soul does not love, it is love itself.
The soul does not know, it is knowledge itself.

Then there is me, I believe life to be a dissipative structure. Resistance to the greater energy expansion that is reality. The soul is the sum of our experiences and it is perpetuated by our contact with the souls of others while we persist on this planet. When we die, we die! and our soul persists in what others have found worthy of remembering and perpetuating.

To me, that is the simplest physical and spiritual meaning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMS2uMUQNnQ

Wow. That makes sense.

Goofus · **Posted:** Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:36 am

heraclitis wrote:

It seems to me people are always grasping for things. There must be some kind of resolution, some kind of logical sensical resolution. It is like that song is that all there is? Then let's go dancing and break out the booze and have a ball. I read the first letters of Paul (the apostle not the Beatle) last night. The first question he had to deal with is "hey, people are dying and there is no resolution. what's up with that?" His answer of course is "you gotta be patient, resolution is just around the corner!" Then he gets the "hey, these jewish christians insist we gotta cut off our foreskins and we can't eat meat unless the animals are sacrificed per the jewish rituals, what's up with that?" Paul is like "now, it's cool, don't listen to those guys, I got the mainline as far as gentiles are concerned, I got you covered and it will all be taken care of when the resolution comes! don't cut off your foreskins and go ahead and eat Greek meat!" Then the next bunch starts saying, "hey man we are horny...we are doing all kind of crazy sexual deviance on the sly because we been abstaining, but sometimes we have a glass wine and well its like, abstain this right here like this and that, you know!" Paul is like, "hey its cool, just get married and assign yourself to one person. As a couple, do what is natural for you to do, follow your god given inclinations, just respect each other and don't be whoring around all over the place, then he won't hold it against you when the great resolution comes!"

Not a lot of bad advice there it is just this great resolution, what is it?

These are the earliest known written records on christianity...this is what the people are saying.

I know popes and priests and ministers hate it when athiests read this stuff because they can't interpret it for me, but it is pretty straight forward so far?

It is like when the rich tell me its important that they stay rich because it benefits everyone! I buy in to it when they tell me it is better to have a few incredibly wealthy individuals and a bunch of poor dumb bastards thinking they can be incredibly wealthy someday. It is simple free market capitalism. The poor dumb bastards should not expect so much from life. They don't have inalienable rights, that is just words on a page. There is no guarantee of dignity..your a poor dumb bastard, what the hell do you expect? You should aspire to your position in the great cosmic scheme...if you are just a poor dumb bastard...then that is what you are. Go ahead and dream of wealth and medical care and dignity and so on etc etc and wow! but don't expect anything and live within your means without expecting anything!

At least these rich people have resolution in their lives and they can say to the poor dumb bastards...look, you can have resolution in your next life, (dumb ass!)!

It seems to me like the people hurting and killing people all claim to be religious. While I don't claim to be a scholar of religion, I have looked in to it. I don't think that the people causing the pain have read the book connected to their particular religion. I don't see the justification for any of this shit in any of the books I have briefly studied. I have total disdain for the message and death caused by what claims to be mainstream Christianity. At the same time, I believe that most Christians are probably good people.

If you look hard enough you will find answers. It's anybody's guess as to whether they are real.

John Prine did tell us long ago that Jesus was married.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9BRia7J9P4

heraclitis · **Joined:** Jul 17, 2010 **Posts:** 1375

Goofus wrote:

heraclitis wrote:

It seems to me people are always grasping for things. There must be some kind of resolution, some kind of logical sensical resolution. It is like that song is that all there is? Then let's go dancing and break out the booze and have a ball. I read the first letters of Paul (the apostle not the Beatle) last night. The first question he had to deal with is "hey, people are dying and there is no resolution. what's up with that?" His answer of course is "you gotta be patient, resolution is just around the corner!" Then he gets the "hey, these jewish christians insist we gotta cut off our foreskins and we can't eat meat unless the animals are sacrificed per the jewish rituals, what's up with that?" Paul is like "now, it's cool, don't listen to those guys, I got the mainline as far as gentiles are concerned, I got you covered and it will all be taken care of when the resolution comes! don't cut off your foreskins and go ahead and eat Greek meat!" Then the next bunch starts saying, "hey man we are horny...we are doing all kind of crazy sexual deviance on the sly because we been abstaining, but sometimes we have a glass wine and well its like, abstain this right here like this and that, you know!" Paul is like, "hey its cool, just get married and assign yourself to one person. As a couple, do what is natural for you to do, follow your god given inclinations, just respect each other and don't be whoring around all over the place, then he won't hold it against you when the great resolution comes!"

Not a lot of bad advice there it is just this great resolution, what is it?

These are the earliest known written records on christianity...this is what the people are saying.

I know popes and priests and ministers hate it when athiests read this stuff because they can't interpret it for me, but it is pretty straight forward so far?

It is like when the rich tell me its important that they stay rich because it benefits everyone! I buy in to it when they tell me it is better to have a few incredibly wealthy individuals and a bunch of poor dumb bastards thinking they can be incredibly wealthy someday. It is simple free market capitalism. The poor dumb bastards should not expect so much from life. They don't have inalienable rights, that is just words on a page. There is no guarantee of dignity..your a poor dumb bastard, what the hell do you expect? You should aspire to your position in the great cosmic scheme...if you are just a poor dumb bastard...then that is what you are. Go ahead and dream of wealth and medical care and dignity and so on etc etc and wow! but don't expect anything and live within your means without expecting anything!

At least these rich people have resolution in their lives and they can say to the poor dumb bastards...look, you can have resolution in your next life, (dumb ass!)!

It seems to me like the people hurting and killing people all claim to be religious. While I don't claim to be a scholar of religion, I have looked in to it. I don't think that the people causing the pain have read the book connected to their particular religion. I don't see the justification for any of this shit in any of the books I have briefly studied. I have total disdain for the message and death caused by what claims to be mainstream Christianity. At the same time, I believe that most Christians are probably good people.

If you look hard enough you will find answers. It's anybody's guess as to whether they are real.

John Prine did tell us long ago that Jesus was married.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9BRia7J9P4

I believe most people are good people
it is just shit gets in the way

heraclitis · **Joined:** Jul 17, 2010 **Posts:** 1375

I first saw Leo with a band called Cornbread. Jimmy Carter damced while they played when he was trying to get elected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axAkqBKr ... sults_main

heraclitis · **Joined:** Jul 17, 2010 **Posts:** 1375

heraclitis wrote:

I first saw Leo with a band called Cornbread. Jimmy Carter damced while they played when he was trying to get elected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axAkqBKr ... sults_main

I know , we all got stories about New Orleans
Here is to the Maple Leaf
and Baby Dolls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v08TBErkp3s

of course who has not been to crop redy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvtdF0z69io

back in America

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvOsnhV6ZY

everybody loves this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VehFk8zi ... ults_video

if you listen to that ehn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYoUct15 ... ure=relmfu

and well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ak7FsqR ... re=related

agnes · **Joined:** Sep 15, 1999 **Posts:** 8348

(i don't even really know what god is) religion whatever whatever. oh i know,,,there are some pearls in there, humans trying to figure out stuff,,,and striving for the best i guess,,,but it is human ponderings, and valuable in and of itself, at times, for what it is worth. human ponderings!

heraclitis · **Joined:** Jul 17, 2010 **Posts:** 1375

agnes wrote:

(i don't even really know what god is) religion whatever whatever. oh i know,,,there are some pearls in there, humans trying to figure out stuff,,,and striving for the best i guess,,,but it is human ponderings, and valuable in and of itself, at times, for what it is worth. human ponderings!

I was reading the gospel according to Mark last night and thought,
Hey, I know the soundtrack to this story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsksSWOx ... re=related

heraclitis · **Joined:** Jul 17, 2010 **Posts:** 1375

heraclitis wrote:

agnes wrote:

(i don't even really know what god is) religion whatever whatever. oh i know,,,there are some pearls in there, humans trying to figure out stuff,,,and striving for the best i guess,,,but it is human ponderings, and valuable in and of itself, at times, for what it is worth. human ponderings!

I was reading the gospel according to Mark last night and thought,
Hey, I know the soundtrack to this story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsksSWOx ... re=related

A little cosmic music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpBGhnCk ... re=related

Now some bizarre savior behavior

Jesus is generally a bit pissy through out Mark
He definitely has that whole
My poop has no foul aroma attitude
So he wakes up one morning
Maybe he had turned a little too much water into wine the night before
maybe Mary was bitchy because too many chicks were grabbing the him of his garment
after all, he is living the life of a poverty stricken rock star
great multitudes are ever present, touching him, trying for a lock of hair
it's a bitch being the chosen one
Some even called him Dylan and said
where are we going next
so he is a bit pissy and hungry
so he sees a fig tree with leaves
He is like hey I could use a fig right now
goes over to the tree and looks
the savior just loses it
There are no figs
I am the chosen one
and this poor dumb tree is out of season
may you always be barren and wither and die
this tree is doing nothing to nobody
put on some leaves and working on his best fig moves
you know, he is looking forward to getting down and putting on some fruit
along comes this scraggly looking cat who gets pissed off and kills him, dead
the tree withered before the power of the chosen one

does that make any sense to anybody?

of course it is interpreted (all these things have to be interpreted)
it is interpreted that Jesus has power (indisputable power) over nature

now, the dude has been walking around healing lepers,
making the blind see and generally raising the dead and dying

SO HE HAD TO KILL A POOR LITTLE TREE TO PROVE HE HAS POWER OVER NATURE?

You see the religious among us just missed this one!

This is Jesus, numero uno, is it god or is it memorex
saying right there in his very first gospel

he is saying (this is just an interpretation now)

screw nature, life and this planet are all a delusion in god's eyes
instead of reaping the land, rape the land
burn it's resources and pollute it's air
if you are hungry, make it wither away

Now look at the alternative.
Jesus could have been noble with nature
as god had with man and said
be fruitful and multiply
Jesus has power and influence over nature
instead of shifting time to the point where the tree is dead and withers
he could have shifted a season and had the tree put on some fruit
I mean really, he is Jesus

He could have been

Hey tree, what up? I could use a fig, a nice juicy fig, mind if I help you whoop some up real quick?

Instead he was

what the hell you mean not having fruit waiting for me
you little son o bitch, away with your leaves
you gonna die!

That seems an angry war like attitude to me.

Then again, who am i to question

THE PRINCE OF PEACE PEACE PEACE peace peace peace (echo and fade)

(I saw this performed the other night by Marin and the Baltimore Symphony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7acCkkcMQCs
it was really good)

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