And now boys and girls it is time for the serious portion of the show

The Great Depression Blues Featuring Jafo as The Village Idiot

Take it Away


Heraclitis First Post: Feb 8, 2012

You have argued that the Great Depression is the result of the Federal Reserve not manipulating the free market by devaluing the dollar (what the Federal Reserve was supposed to do in this situation according to their charter written by progressives). The progressives were followed by a scandalous fellow named Harding and a boring chap named Coolidge who were TRICKLE DOWN THEORISTS. They also had a fellow named Benjamin Strong at the Federal Reserve (a Morgan Man (JP that is)) and an industrialist named Mellon heading the Treasury. You would have loved them! They almost ended the progressive income tax and they were acting to return the world to the gold standard (that nasty WWI and all its debt had really made a mess of the Gold Standard). Well, as Milton said, their descendants (because they were gone when Hoover came around) kept the fire burning. They did not act (as Milton would have) because they said the Market needed a good cleaning (and don't forget, they could not loosen the amount of available cash because the law required that they could not devalue the dollar below 40% of the gold standard (as a Ron Paul Supporter another thing you would be proud of)).

Does not really make sense given your argument that manipulating the free market created the Great Depression?

Heraclitis Second Post: This question for Jafo posted Feb 11 trying to get him to commit to his position (If you look at his previous posts this is a summary of what he did post). This was initially posted Feb 11 and Jafo failed to ever say Yes or No to it!

Had we let the wealthy non benevolent self interested bankers handle the panic of 1929 instead of the meddling socialists in the Socialist created Federal Reserve there would have been no depression, sure a cyclically recession that cleans the Free Market system would have happened, but no Great Depression! Therefore, the Great Depression was not the result of greed and a failure of Free Market Capitalism.

Does this correctly state your knowledge of the facts?

Heraclitis Third Post: Feb 13. After Jafo had miraculously copied and posted a bunch of words that essentially agreed 100% with my post from Feb 8.

Looky here, it now appears you miraculously agree with me 100%! See what happens when get pinned down on clarity, suddenly it becomes apparent that we need a whole damn salt shaker when you are around!
Let's take it one step further:

The Federal Reserve in its current incarnation was created by Senator Nelson Aldrich with support of JP Morgan and John D Rockefeller after they put up the money to quell the Panic of 1907. They wanted a more streamlined efficient approach to dealing with these things. They sent a bunch of Bankers (all the real New York Banks were represented) to Jekyl Island Georgia to set up a charter for the Fed headed by a guy named Benjamin Strong (as above, a Morgan man). They came back with the plan which was originally opposed because it gave too much power to the New York Banks. However, Morgan pulled his muscle (he had personally funded most of the recoveries from two panics after all) and forced it through (the Progressives argued it should be administered by somebody other than Bankers and it was passed during the era of the progressive, however, they did not get their wish (as stated above). The first Fed Panic was actually in 1920. It was a test of the system. The Fed maintained a tight money policy until all the weak banks failed and unemployment rose to a point where wages could be "recalibrated". Of course the Banker boys were pleased with their achievement and patted each other on the backs as they prepared for a decade of profit from the mess made by WWI in Europe.

Of course the rest is history (as I originally stated and you reaffirmed after you decided to try and back up your bullshit Jafo). The next Panic was not about a Post War adjustment it was about a true blue old fashioned credit bubble unseen before and only bested in the 21 century when George Bush was at the helm! True to form, those socialist wealthy bankers turned the screws to cleanse the system of weak banks and to increase unemployment to recalibrate wages and BOOM! THE GREAT DEPRESSION!

Hey Jafo, it seems you are full of shit! It was not socialist meddling but greed that caused THE GREAT DEPRESSION!

I wonder how old Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller got that name?

Followed by
Jafo’s insight on how he beat me posted Feb 14:

The Fed was created by Congress..

Ahh yes, our favorite "progressive" Wilson..

One may argue that bankers have too much influence in Congress, and I might agree, but that is not the fault of capitalism is it? That is like blaming a dog for eating all the food in your pantry when you left the pantry door open. Get Congress out of business and bankers have no need for them.

Well, you were beaten when you look up the facts, like what I posted above, instead of making them up. You said the Fed is purely a private construct which is factually false. Nice try though. It is a government institution, who mans it doesn't matter at all. The institutions meddling is what caused the great depression, not capitalism.

You seem to say because those who manned the Fed were once bankers, that it was the banking industries fault. That is like saying, because Adolf Hitler was once a beekeeper, beekeeping is responsible for the holocaust.

My comments:

Of course the Fed was created by Congress during the Wilson Administration from legislation introduced by Senator Nelson Aldrich after Morgan organized a bankers convention on Jekyl Island (mentioned above in the Feb 13 Post) where the Federal Reserve as we know it was envisioned. So I never said the Fed was a purely private construct. If you read what was posted it is clear that the FED was created by JP Morgan to serve as an alternative to JP Morgan fixing everything that breaks. It seems your Free Market Capitalist boys were using the Fed to Meddle instead of doing what was intended by the progressives when they did let it pass. Your Free Market Heroes who were supposed to save us all used the Fed twice. They test drove it in the Panic of 1920 where they tightened money driving up unemployment (and down wages) and then they were taking it for the grand tour in 1929 and 30 (again tightening the screws to drive up unemployment and cause a number of failures in the “weak bank sector”). They just kept it tight a little too long (as your post that agrees with me 100% said). There was meddling involved, meddling by Free Market Capitalists in the name of Free Market Capitalist.

Nice try in changing what you said but of course, it does not change what you said.

Socialists did not take the controls away from the Capitalists, but the Capitalists were trying to make their meddling more efficient (and less costly to them) by setting up the FED Reserve!

Your little parable about Hitler, well we have already discussed you stupid parables before!

So this makes Jafo:

A. The village Idiot
B. A Liar
C. A bad parable creator
D. Milton Friedmans Toy Boy
E. All of the Above

You Decide?

Ok, now, put your glasses on:



Where did I say DEFAULTING on social security? Keep trying you lying sack of shit.



Is this supposed to make a point of some kind.. They changed your meds today didn't they?



Again, is this supposed to point out some kind of inconsistency? If so, you really failed.

(and the rest of the droolings of a madman that I will spare you from all by not repeating them)

Thanks for illustrating how insane your thread of thought has been through this entire discussion. I don't think I could have summed it up any better..

Like I said

You Decide!

HAHAHA!! The best of the "Shit Head" Heraclitus.. According the insane one, capitalist set up the fed...

Shall we take a look at the FACTS, instead of idiocy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act


I suppose Wilson must be the Capitalist you are referring to? I mean he SIGNED INTO LAW you moron. Now who is Wilson again? Ahh yes, the great progressive socialist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson



Try again dipshit..

Like I said, You Decide!

Not a hard choice.. Facts (me) or fiction (you)..

The following is from the Federal Reserve Wiki Link that Jafo put on his first response. Not Nelson Aldrich, the Aldrich Plan and Jekyl Island...You Decide!


Some of this was chronicled in the reports of the National Monetary Commission (1909–1912), which was created by the Aldrich–Vreeland Act in 1908. Included in a report of the Commission, submitted to Congress on January 9, 1912, were recommendations and draft legislation with 59 sections, for proposed changes in U.S. banking and currency laws.[2] The proposed legislation was known as the Aldrich Plan, named after the chairman of the Commission, Republican Senator Nelson W. Aldrich of Rhode Island.
The Plan called for the establishment of a National Reserve Association with 15 regional district branches and 46 geographically dispersed directors primarily from the banking profession. The Reserve Association would make emergency loans to member banks, print money, and act as the fiscal agent for the U.S. government. State and nationally chartered banks would have the option of subscribing to specified stock in their local association branch.[2] It is generally believed that the outline of the Plan had been formulated in a secret meeting on Jekyll Island in November 1910, which Aldrich and other well connected financiers attended.[3]

Nice try, but if you continued to read:



Checkmate..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Strong,_Jr.

The first Chairman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression ... E2%80%9321

The first crisis (look what the Fed Did!)

You Decide

Umm I am a capitalist and an Arlo fan. To use your logic saying that because the Chairman was supposedly a capitalist, that makes the Fed capitalism, is to say the same thing about being an Arlo fan.

Nice try..

Look at the Feds admitting they caused the great depression:

http://www.wnd.com/2008/03/59405/

They said it, plain as day:



Buh bye..

Not only was he a Capitalist but he was JP Morgans man on Jekyl Island

A little wiki stuff from the Panic of 1907 and I was wrong Benny was not the first chairman...he had an important position though!

Aldrich convened a secret conference with a number of the nation's leading financiers at the Jekyll Island Club, off the coast of Georgia, to discuss monetary policy and the banking system in November 1910. Aldrich and A. P. Andrew (Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Department), Paul Warburg (representing Kuhn, Loeb & Co.), Frank A. Vanderlip (James Stillman's successor as president of the National City Bank of New York), Henry P. Davison (senior partner of J. P. Morgan Company), Charles D. Norton (president of the Morgan-dominated First National Bank of New York), and Benjamin Strong (representing J. P. Morgan), produced a design for a "National Reserve Bank".[60]
Forbes magazine founder B. C. Forbes wrote several years later:
Picture a party of the nation’s greatest bankers stealing out of New York on a private railroad car under cover of darkness, stealthily riding hundreds of miles South, embarking on a mysterious launch, sneaking onto an island deserted by all but a few servants, living there a full week under such rigid secrecy that the names of not one of them was once mentioned, lest the servants learn the identity and disclose to the world this strangest, most secret expedition in the history of American finance. I am not romancing; I am giving to the world, for the first time, the real story of how the famous Aldrich currency report, the foundation of our new currency system, was written.[61]
The final report of the National Monetary Commission was published on January 11, 1911. For nearly two years legislators debated the proposal and it was not until December 23, 1913, that Congress passed the Federal Reserve Act. President Woodrow Wilson signed the legislation immediately and the legislation was enacted on the same day, December 23, 1913, creating the Federal Reserve System.[62] Charles Hamlin became the Fed's first chairman, and none other than Morgan's deputy Benjamin Strong became president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, the most important regional bank with a permanent seat on the Federal Open Market Committee.[62]




Oh and

You Decide!

Who cares about Aldrich? His plan was not implemented.. I don't get your correlation that somehow this proves the Fed is capitalism. You are reaching here man..

The fact is, under true free market capitalism, the Fed does not exist. When you introduce the Fed and the Fed crashes the markets, you can't blame capitalism. It just doesn't make logical sense.

A little quote from the Heraclitis post from Feb 13

They sent a bunch of Bankers (all the real New York Banks were represented) to Jekyl Island Georgia to set up a charter for the Fed headed by a guy named Benjamin Strong (as above, a Morgan man). They came back with the plan which was originally opposed because it gave too much power to the New York Banks. However, Morgan pulled his muscle (he had personally funded most of the recoveries from two panics after all) and forced it through (the Progressives argued it should be administered by somebody other than Bankers and it was passed during the era of the progressive, however, they did not get their wish (as stated above). The first Fed Panic was actually in 1920. It was a test of the system.


Just so Jafo knows he did not find some "escape clause"

You Decide?

The ramblings of Heraclitis, or the facts.. You decide.