Diane MC, please check your personal messages.

Jim, it may be an extreme example, or it may not be . Check out the episode titled " Four O'Clock" from the original Twilight Zone series.

I have no God at all but i do like a number of Ray Davies songs!

No it ain't! Here it is in three parts:

Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVeNqwIEC9s&NR=1

Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wget8cvX ... re=related

Part III: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzWMOjoB ... re=related

As do I. But, as I recall we never had a movment to elect Ray God, only president some years ago. But considering recent devolpments, some people think that presidents are gods, mostly the presidents themselves of course, but I think that counts.


So Zap, "Four O'Clock" works for you....huh?

If Theo could have only waited until 4:20, perhaps he woulda chilled a bit?

Yep, it does, Larry. Just change the Commies, harlots, etc. to Pagans, Heathens, heritics, guru huggers and non-believers and it would work just fine.

Ya think?

Still with us Jim?

I suppose it could be dangerous being around people that don't think like ourselves. Or perhaps it could be just as dangerous being around people that do think like ourselves, but might be open to new or foreign thoughts or ideas, or just tolerate them for the sake of humanity.
The danger is that one may learn something they didn't know, or worse yet, find out something they learned was not the only answer or even a wrong answer. I mean what if one were to expand their mind only to find out they ran out of skull capacity? Scary dangerous thought....huh? For those comfortable with their own faith, I don't think it would present a problem.Some might suggest if those comfortable people refuse to stick fingers in their ears and recite the mantra of "nah,nah,nah,nah.nah ,nah " that thier faith is weak or not genuine.This may be the doctrine in the church of the ostrich....who knows?
If ones faith does not allow one to at least tolerate and accept other views, then it may be weak and that person may question his or her faith. If one perceives thier faith to be strong and continues to object to anyone suggesting another view, then that person may be an over the top zealot or fundamentlist.History shows us that the over the top zealots and fundamentlists are the most dangerous to mankind. They don't have to be of course, and not all or even a majority are, but as a group they breed more of the worlds man made disasters than any other.
So, in short, listening to other views does not mean making them your own, accepting that they exist does not mean you adopt them yourself.
It's all part of the human condition and journey my friend, and it ain't gunna change. Your perception or understanding of it may change,but that's about it.

Be True To Yourself...

There's too many quotes to go through each one (as Jim noted), to argue each point in the dialogue. But a general reading leads one to the conclusion that Jim thinks any worship that is not directed to his understanding of the truth is an abomination. Therefore he doesn't want to be a part of it.

If he had left it at that, that would be fine. He is free to live with his truth.

___________________

My truth is obviously a little different. Whatever the circumstances of one's life, full knowledge and awareness of the divine remains with the divine. I know of no one throughout history, or in the present, whose understanding of God, the Gods or Goddesses, Nature or whatever is complete. It is all a work in progress. By definition, we all fall short of a total and complete understanding of the divine mind - the Creator.

Therefore, Christians, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Taoists, Native Religions, atheists, semi-all-the-aboves, and anyone else has one thing is common: No one knows the complete truth as it is. That is not the same as saying there is no truth.

You cannot be your parent, or have their experiences, but you can relate to them as you come to know yourself. You can see yourself in them, or see the differences, although you cannot fully become them. This is as true for Christ as it is for us. That is why Jesus can say "I and my Father are one." but he cannot say "I am the Father." There is a difference.

To some people Jesus' saying "No one comes to my Father but by (through) me," is the same as saying "If you don't believe in me, you can't come to God the Father." Of course he could have put it that way if he'd wanted to, he could have made it plain and simple. But, he didn't.

To me personally it means something quite different than the usual interpretation - That those who cannot acknowledge the truth within themselves (as he had done) cannot acknowledge the truth beyond themselves. Those who deny the grace of divinity within, cannot but deny it without. As you see yourself, you will see your parents. As you act towards others, you will act toward God. "What you do for the least of these, you do for me," is one quote I love.

That is my understanding, and there are great lessons for me personally contained therein. I do not expect anyone to believe as I do. I do not advocate for anyone to join with me in my understanding. I encourage everyone of any religion to get to the heart of it, to dig deeply, and to err on the side of humility when doubts arise. And to grant that we can change and update our understandings as grace is given us to do it.

As Jim notes, it is not simply what we do that brings us close to God, it is not our intentions; Nothing but divine grace allows for our understanding. And grace begins by the will of the divine as it is directed toward us individually. It is not limited. God's grace is limitless and for everyone. I would be thrilled to be next to anyone of any religion and witness that grace descend upon them. Is it an abomination when people worship and pray to the truth as they understand it? I don't believe that for a second.

If I had to sum up the scriptures in their entirety into one sentence it would be this: "To Thine Own Self Be True." For in being true to yourself, you will be true to the one who made you.

Being true to yourself will not "piss God off." Bearing false witness against your neighbors has consequences. Speaking with your own voice, being true to yourself, allows that you may be right - or wrong. Speaking in God's voice, condemning those who walk a different path, belittling others, reveals the internal condemnation, the guilt and disgust, the filth and betrayal within ourselves. It is easier to vomit out the turmoil before others than to wage the battle within one's self, but less profitable.

In such times, quiet meditation and prayer are useful tools. With grace there is no peace that cannot be won. No one makes progress without taking steps. I have found the steps to an enlightened mind can be found in the journey of the Buddha. The steps to awareness can be found in the Bhagavad Gita. The steps to clarity are in the words of Lao Tzu, and the steps to forgiveness and redemption are at the foot of the cross.

Take whatever steps seems appropriate to you and you alone. As the song says "you got to walk that lonesome valley by yourself." Be true to yourself trusting in God (or whatever you believe) that your journey through the valley will be successful.

If that doesn't work, stay on the meds until you've recovered some degree of mental health, shared by other healthy human beings regardless of what they know. Everything within you that is not happy, is not you.

In other words... Be true to yourself.


adg

I just want to add a few thoughts,

Jesus spoke Aramaic, a rich, layered meaning language...

we are reading someone's interpretation..



"Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me."

what I hear in this is

the path of forgiveness, charity, and redemption are essential to enlightenment..


Hasrat Inayat Khan, the great Sufi Master said, and I'm paraphrasing (my books are is storage)

[ Each religion is like a musical note, when played together , is a great piece of music..]

each Tradition has its gifts .....

JB

and a ton of baggage

(Sorry, I tried to let it go by, honest!)

hahaha

thats funny..

Well, PSB, we of the "All or none" ilk accept that. My only question is why did you, as an atheist, want me to be your guru?

For me, some sort of spiritulality includes believing in some form of deity and being a follower and practitioner in the ancient religion of smartassism.

Oh, and well stated adg.
Being true to yourself is concept not unlike what I was trying to articulate to Jim in my last post. Being comfortable in ones own skin and such.
However, should the concept of "being true to yourself" be incomplete, corrupted or confused in some way, it may not be what I think you mean.
Being true to oneself in some ways means being an island in a vast sea of other islands.You can build bridges to some, take boats to others but still need to respect the sovereignty of each.
Perhaps an overzealous fundamentlist would attempt sticking a flag in each island claiming it for himself or whom he serves, all the while assuming he was being true to himself. Tough question I suppose.

Thanks for steping in Arlo, it does get a little overwhelming. I'm enjoying the read though.


I guess you've had conversations with other "born again" believers. The thing is, my understanding of truth may be flawed but, I wouldn't be able to bow before other gods besides Jesus without worrying that God would be displeased with me. One God (The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit), one man (me). It's such a simple concept and one this simple man can understand. For me, it's much easier to embrace a relationship than it is to embrace a set of a bunch of different religious ideas and (or) rules.

Christianity is the only religion that offers a simple step to be ushered into the afterlife of bliss. Maybe I am deluded by believing in "One Way" but, I don't believe so.



Experiencing the power of the Holy Spirit is an awsome thing Arlo. When he comes down to Earth and imparts His love, wisdom, and healing power, I get awestruck. There is no way I would hurt him by giving myself to another.

You're right Arlo, we don't (and never will) have a complete understanding of the mind of the Creator. Understanding the devine is a gift God gives us through the teachings of Jesus with spark of the Holy Spirit to enlighten us.
That's what I believe.

Jesus said He knew what the complete truth was. Was he deluded?

Yes, 3in1, it's a hard concept to understand. You'll get it Arlo.

Would it have made any difference to you had he worded it your way?

From my understanding, Jesus didn't need to "acknowledge" the "truth within", He WAS the truth.

That's Hindu stuff, right?

We DO have a common belief in this. There is hope for us both.

I can say amen to that.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to experience the Holy Spirit decending on the United Nations? I don't see it happening but, we can pray.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and love your neighbor as you love yourself".

I'll choose this quote Arlo. I don't trust myself enough to embrace your quote. Don't get me wrong tough, it's a nice quote.


I need to think about this quote.


Oh crap, I was feeling good about our conversation and you start in with the "one world" stuff again.

I'm not happy all the time so does that men I have a demon in me? I better go take a pill.

Gosh, that as a long letter, I feel special Arlo.
Love,
Jim