Since when in the world of we the people can't all of us get anything the people want?

After reading your last several posts, I see where some of us are misunderstanding your point of "the people" owning television, oil, etc.... and why we all keep assuming you mean the govt. So if "the people" were to own and control these things, what group or organization is going to keep this organized? It would have to be an organzation thats representative of the people. Which would mean that we would have to elect people to this organization so it would be a true representation of all "the people's" interests at heart. Amirite? Hmmm... sounds like the government......

While it's nice to think that an organization would distribute profits amongst those who could use it as to lining the pockets of the billionaire media monguls who organize and drop the capital to make sure that the world gets a Super Bowl every January, human nature will dictate otherwise. While these billionaires donate so much money to charities to avoid getting raped by Uncle Sam and IRS, I don't forsee them doing much more than that. Which is why it's solely up to the individual to pave the road to their retirement and not have to rely on any one person or any government for a hand out. It's important to max out the Roth IRA every year and contribute to the 401K if you're fortunate to have one. That way you can dictate your own future on not have to depend on someone else to make sure you'll be ok when you turn 65. I guess it pays to work hard and if it doesn't, then you're in the wrong career field.

That being said, why should those who work harder than others, putting in 84 hour work weeks have to give away what they earned to those who elect not to do the same? Outsourcing is what is hurting us the most in my opinion. If we take away the means for people to take care of themselves, we'll all be doomed to gov't handouts which will only do away with a middle class and we'd be left with this large ravine between our country's rich and poor.

Side note.... that icecream float sounds SO GOOOOD! I haven't had one in years. Maybe that's what I need. I'm sure it would lighten me up a little bit.

We do own the oil, tv and even the telephone, or we should. My vision is for states, cities and Unions to control those profits. I think any CPA could figure out who need the cash. I hear over in the Basque region of northern Spain that the workers own the banks, through the best News I have heard in a long time: The Mondragon Coperative. There is enough money to go around and we have an ok foundation to spread the cash out.
S.S. and healthcare are going to need money coming from other than the workman's wage. You know you will never get rich working with your hands, unless you can sing or play sports and that is ok.
Imagine all the people sharing all the world.
I've known for a long time that the Banks own the houses, so I want credit card companies to pay for things we need. Everything is in place to make it work real smooth, and some won't even know things have changed unless they get sick and don't lose their homes.

I just got half way through a book sent me by my oldest sister down in New Orleans. It is by Thom Hartmann who is on Air America from 12 to 3 during the week. He talks of what Tom Paine, Jefferson, and I think even Madison saw as the greatest trouble coming to this Land. It is called, Screwed. The undeclared war against the middle class.
I had never read before that corperations do no have rights, but exist as a priveledge. (How do you spell that?) They also can not donate money to any politician. Unions could be under that same law too. But not there members.
Ya, as far as the TV, Oil and Telephone being owned by the people as I dream of: You could pretty much make it happen, just by recending the Reagan tax cuts on the super rich.
12 years of republican appointed judges, as the older Union Men told me, would catch up to US.
Oh, I almost forgot to say, "there is no room for war in the 21st century."
That would leave billions or trillions around to develope electric cars we could plug into our roofs. After we are not building b1 bombers and tanks, why not?:

I've just skimmed through the previous eight pages, and felt like chiming in my views. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes here, so don't get offended.

The way i see it:
The problem: Some "Americans"(Note that our country is not America, but the United States of America. America includes both North and South America.) view the influx of immigrants to this country as harmful to their freedom, jobs, safety, whatever. I don't agree with this, but let's just assume that this is the case.

Bush's Proposed solution: A wall.

Now let me ask you this: If you had a sore tooth, would you prefer taking a tylenol, or having the tooth removed? I personally would get to the root of the problem (no pun intended). When the tylenol wears off, you still have the sore tooth. The operation takes care of the cause of the problem, not the symptoms.

In this case, the cause of the problem is that our economy is better than Mexico's. If two people of equal intelligence and drive both make efforts in the different countries, it is almost certain that the person in the USA will go farther and have more opportunities.

To me, i view building a wall as taking a tylenol. It may relieve the "pain" (again, i dont see it as a pain, but some people do) but the base of the problem is still there. The people in Mexico will be getting screwed over and they will still try to make it to the united states. Passport fraud, ocean crossings, and maybe even tunnels will be the problem of the next generation, only increasing the gap between our two countries.

The solution is to scrap the wall. Take the money proposed for that and invest it in Mexico's economy; start plans that help small business owners and farmers to make a living. We as United states residents could branch out and do business in Mexico, first starting with large corporations that agree to give their workers fair wages. Once they get the initial cash invested in Mexico's economy, the job opportunities will blossom. Think of the marketing possibilities! In these days, when it's cool to be "green" and humanitarian, the large corps could (and would) wave the fact that they treat their employees fairly like a flag. They would do more business, the workers would be able to be paid more, and then the money would trickle into Mexico's market.

We need to stop seeing people as "Americans", "Mexicans", and "Iraqis" and start seeing them as people. When the people of the US begin to realize that others are just as important as they are, maybe then we can begin to make a change for the better, for EVERYONE in the world.

Don't get me started on NAFTA.

Thank you Nathaniel! You've put this into a perspective that I'd like to use in discussing immigration issues with others.

And welcome! Glad you're here, and I hope to hear more from you!

You put it so well. Welcome to the site...

A wall wasn't the answer in Berlin...it's not the answer here, either.

Hello Nathaniel, well said and welcome. And like Sue mentioned, a wall wasn't the answer over here either. First it was a wall, people jumped it, then they added barb wire, then another smaller wall, then all kinds of implements of destruction in the death zone and sharp shooters on watch towers ready to kill. And they killed a lot of refugees. People swam through rivers, crossed the East Sea on small boats, they built Ultra light airplanes, they squated in car trunks, in luggage, they tried all kinds of things to flee. A lot succeeded and a lot got caught and had to spend years in DDR prisons if they survived. A wall definitely isn't the answer.

Thanks for expanding brigitte, i agree completely.

Also, you all can call me Nate. I don't know why i put nathaniel. Seems more official, i guess.

sorry nathaniel, we already have a nate that graces these forums with his bon mots every once in a while, when he's not truckin' this way or that...
but in any event, i have to disagree with your remove the tooth analogy.
You shouldn't look to remove the 'problem', but look to save it, salvage it, restore it, resurrect it... anything but removal. Removal is the extreme, when you've run the course of other good solutions. And even then, there must be a significant amount of followup to rebuild, reconstruct, and redefine, so that the loss is quickly mitigated and the "body" made whole again.

or are you some misguided dentist right out of the little shop of horrors??

You're right, removal isn't a good word. Basically i just meant if so many "americans" are getting pissed about mexicans coming into the US, one way to solve the problem without getting hostile would be to help them out.

Getting hostile is the wrong way to handle it...our little town, Herndon, VA is in the national news again regarding their day laborer site...the town council voted to get rid of it because they couldn't legally discriminate against people who were in the country illegally. The whole thing just makes me ill. If people would just stop thinking of them as illegals, and start thinking of them as people who need food, shelter, clothing and a way to make some money so they can support themselves (most are here because they WANT to work!) maybe a few of them will become a friend. It's harder to discriminate against people you regard as friends.
My hopes are on the kids...they're in the schools, with the kids of the people encouraging the discrimination. The kids are friends, will grow up as friends, and in the future we'll be seeing a lot of cross-culture marriages. I've been to a couple of those weddings recently, and it's a good thing!

Most of the kids in my 3rd grade class are immigrants. No way to know if they are legal or illegal... only that they are just adorable! Many are from Mexico, one is from Cuba. One can't read at all, another can only read and write in Spanish. They all speak English, varying degrees of accents. I'm actually getting "good" at understanding them, and have even been able to recall some Spanish from my college classes years ago. They love to laugh when I mispronounce a word... or two.

They don't like reading, or being read to. But most are very good at math. And they are so creative! So I try to think up ways to tie in their reading with other projects.

My hopes are on these kids too... we have a long way to go, but every day I feel a little bit better about their future progress.

I think this is the best idea. Most everyone's opinion is based on how the situation affects them, personally.

The people who profit from hiring illegal workers and pay them too little to live in the United States should be responsible for their housing, food, medical expenses and education. No HUD, food stamps or Medicaid or free education (which doesn't even work that well for kids who speak English.)