<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZoWie:


In regards to the united states... their leadership is allowing their people to suffer. the law used to require that they collect taxes for food and welfare aid for the people. they chose to change this and spend it on their corporations and their military... allowing their 30% living in poverty to suffer... then blame it on the poor themselves. they tend to kill some of their own citizens too... cops shoot them and stick plungers up their asses and stuff... as does iraq and the taliban.

-Z<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh, yes...let's do compare living in iraq with living in the us. why just the other day i read how bush had "his" military run up north to gas a couple of villages because they had the audacity to disagree with him. i'm not sure if that was right before or right after he called off all elections and stated the he would be the dictator for the next 50 years.

btw...i do realize that there are some serious issues in the country that need to be addressed. it's why i voted for gore instead of bush...i thought maybe he could do more in that regard but, of course, that was probably foolish of me since gore and bush are the same...nader and michael moore said so, therefore it must be true.

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by deb on Oct 22, 2001 ---</FONT></center>

Altho' I'd rather live in the US than Iraq, ZoWie makes a good point here.

In one of Jimmy Carter's books----I don't know which one, & I'm not gonna look because I'm running late for work---he discusses the problems he had negotiating with other countries regarding their "human rights violations." Leaders from Russia, China, etc. would begin these conversations by asking Carter, "What about YOUR human rights violations? We have no homeless people, no unemployment, & everybody here gets medical care. Is this true in your country?"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nathen:
We should ask the question, Would we be willing to give the food to the Taliban to hand out to the people? Would we even be willing to give the food without the US Flag being on each package?

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Deb's right about the Taliban...do any reading about some of the things they've done, and there will be no doubt in your mind the food would not get passed on. Do a little research on what their rule has done to women in that country, and then tell me you can possibly in any way proscribe trying to work with these people...knowing that their treament of women is a basic tenet of their beliefs, and could not possibly change.

And as far as us not putting the flag on the help we send over.....our main problem is we didn't do it soon enough. Deb's right on that too....this country has sent a LOT of aid over there. Biggest share of it had some form of the "U.N." label plastered all over it. These people are being told by their leadership that America is evil and the root cause of all hardship in their country. And they have no real reason to not believe them.....after all, despite how much we help people throughout the world, the people have seen no evidence that America has helped them in the least.

I don't think anyone should need to take credit for their charity in general...being anonymous in charity is, for the most part, a good thing. But in this case.....well, I don't think we should be shouting our own praises (and I don't think we are.) But I do think we should make sure we aren't letting someone else take what we've done and, in effect, use it against us. So, if that means putting the flag on every packet of food that goes out, so be it.

So would you rather live in China or Russia than here then? Personally, I wouldn't.

People never seem to understand.....freedom is a responsibility. While some of the homeless, and some of the unemployed are there due to unfortunate circumstance, a great many are there due to their own choice. And repeated efforts to help them have been to no avail. It would be a whole lot easier to take care of those problems if we were willing to simply jail people for the "crime" of being unwilling to work, unable to hold a job, or for not having a home.

While I disagree with the treatment of women by the Taliban, I wonder how many of these women accept this rule as being God's and not that of men?

I know of course that there are women who have spoken out, but how do the rank and file feel about these laws, I do not know.

Kim, you are right about the flags needing to have been there long ago, but the current drops of food are being handled by pysops and are having about as much effect as when
the US Soilders were told that while they were fighting over there, "Bart Simson is having sex with your wife", sometimes the lack of knowledge can really get a plan screwed up.


Zowie, I agree there are problems with the USA but the comparison you made does not ring true, are crimes are towards people one by one, over there they take out whole groups of people at one time.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Altho I'd rather live in the U.S. than Iraq, Zowie makes a good point here
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*for every bad cop out there that's corrupt, there are 10's of 1000's who are not!!!

**and for those home-less people, there are soup kitchens, and safe-havens. Some home-less people choose to live that way.

**You don't see too many pan-handlers in Afganistan....

nathen..for some background and disturbing information about the women in afghanistan, you should check out this site. www.rawa.org

actually, rb..there are pan-handlers in afghanistan...many of the women. they're not allowed to work and many of them are widows, so when they can sneak out of the house they go into the streets to beg...or prostitue themselves to get some money to feed their kids. of course, this only works until the ministry of virtue and vice (or whatever they call themselves) find them and beat them..or kill them.

And even if some.....even if a MAJORITY of the women over there accept that as the way it should be (which from everything I've seen is NOT the case, and which you could also argue that most of those who do have probably never known anything else,) the fact is that the Taliban came in and took over in a society where women were, if not equals, then perhaps close. Certainly the women were educated at least at an elementary level, and many to undergrad level and beyond. Women there who were doctors, lawyers, professionals of all sorts before the Taliban took over now live under burqas (sp?) and are frequently killed if it is discovered they are reading, teaching the children, etc. Women are not allowed to see male doctors, because a male who is not related to a woman is not allowed to see her skin. But women are no longer allowed to work outside the home, which means there are no women doctors. Guess what all that means for a sick or injured woman in that society. Not to mention some of the other stuff that goes on!

What the Taliban has done there is really not much different than it would be if they came here and tried to do that to American women. We aren't talking women who've known no other way of life (and even if they hadn't, maybe it's time they should.) We aren't talking interferring with the way of life and religion of someone who has grown up in that religion.

Frankly, it surprises me greatly to see you, Nate, espouse any sort of position that could be construed as pro-Taliban in any way (or even pretend to, if you are just trying to stir people up.) Given your position on racism in the past, you are the last one I would have thought would have questioned opposing the Taliban and suggested that maybe the women like it that way. That's akin to saying that maybe it was wrong for people to have worked in this country to abolish slavery because maybe some of those slaves felt they were better off that way. Or to oppose the Jim Crow laws because maybe those affected by the laws really did see themselves as being inferior and felt that separation was better. There are black groups today that still think keeping the races separate is better, and I don't see you championing them......

thanks deb. My ignorance is my bliss. It must be the male chauvenist in me. For some reason, that fact eluded me. I sincerely thank you, for bringing that to my attention!

*I also (subconsiously) forget to thank women, when thanking the military. It's not something I mean to do.

rb...it's not because you're a guy. i'm quite sure many, many people were unaware of the situation over there. i knew that women in many islamic countries were repressed in a way that women would find intolerable in this country, but i was not aware of the severity of the situation in afghanistan before now.

kim...you're so right about the fact that the women lived a very different life in the past. there were women in govt, as well. i'm so impressed with many of them that they have not just gone into depression over what's happened, but they have stayed strong and are active in an underground network to teach their daughters of how it should be.

what I had said was "While I disagree with the treatment of women by the Taliban, I wonder how many of these women accept this rule as being God's and not that of men?"

I know that here in America, we have had women who because of their beliefs have lived as second class citizens,they were members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, read the history of this group and it's war with the United States, once with the US Army were going to invade the City of Salt Lake, the people stood outside their doors ready to burn the city if it fell into the armies hands.

This again was a war to free the women from the church rule and in fact the women did not want such freedom. Even today there is a large number of the women of the faith that prefer to be under their husband's rule.

nathen...these women did not go under the burqa voluntarily. many of them led full and productive lives outside their homes...without cover. i should think that would answer your question.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kim:

So would you rather live in China or Russia than here then? Personally, I wouldn't.
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Fuck this crap. I haven't heard that Russia one since, uh, there WAS a Russia.

And, Nathen, what's this thing about "WE don't take out entire groups." You want me to US-bash by mentioning the Indians, so you or the neobushoids can call me a whole lot of nasty names, but I won't play. Mess with someone else's head.

Of course, the borg are going to call me nasty names anway. I can spell scapegoat, strawman, and bait-taker.

If everyone around here is gonna think from their crotch and not argue the FACTS, well, then I will too.

<center>FUCK SUNSHINE LEFTISTS.
FUCK BORG.
STOP TRYING TO ASSIMILATE ME.
IT'S FUTILE.
I'M YOUR WORST FUCKING NIGHTMARE.</center>

-Z

okie dokie, zowie.

fact #1...there IS a russia. there used to be a soviet union, but now there's a russia.