I don't think this has been counterproductive at all... but maybe that's the optimist in me. I'm hoping that Cheryl will actually GET what myself and others have been trying to tell her. Or at the very least that if she mentions myself, the web site, or anyone else here (for the most part) - and it's a comment in poor taste - that it's not gonna be tolerated. Everyone has a right to defend themselves.

I've come to the realization, that if you put up with shit all the time, things aren't gonna get any better. Something along the lines of what Arlo said at one point... There are 2 kinds of people in this world... those who give a damn, and those who don't. I'd rather be living in a world where those who give a damn outnumber those who don't. By just ignoring this kind of junk, you are basically becoming one of those who "doesn't give a damn".

Some would say, it's a fight that isn't worth fighting. Maybe it is, but to make a statement like that means you've given up on the cause (in this case a person). Cheryl, all this stuff isn't being said because we don't like you or are mean people. It's being said because we actually give a damn. If I wanted you gone or wished you ill, you'd be gone by now - trust me. Threats of Arlo abandoning me or the site or just plain kicking my ass don't scare me. I run this site because I love Arlo and his music and I want other people to know about Arlo. I think I can accomplish that with or without Arlo behind me. I'm not saying that I don't love having Arlo's support and backing, but it's not my sole reason for doing this. Remember, when I started this site over 5 years ago, I had no idea that Arlo would actually be involved in it on a personal level in any way.

Oh, and one other thing. Quite a few of us have expressed that we've gotten rather tired of hearing Cheryl complain about her diabetes all the time. To give her credit, she has actually stopped posting about it that much on here (although not entirely). So, to those who say that the battle isn't worth fighting because it's like banging your head against a brick wall... remember, it might be painfull and not easy, but walls can be broken down. And in the end, everyone wins.

We don't have to listen to something that we were growing very tired of. And Cheryl doesn't have to listen to us bitch about it every time she does it. Everyone wins.

Dave, no matter what we do or say, Cheryl has, is now, and will continue to sound like a broken record playing us all for a bunch of ignorant fools as well as making a mockery out of ArloNet. This is your website, you designed it, you maintain it, you should be proud of it, I know I am. You have heard all our thoughts and opinions on just how we feel about this matter with no biased overtones noted. Most of us have tried to help Cheryl only to see our efforts be insulted by her. She has caused a disruption at ArloNet that only causes this site embarassment when you stop to think of all the visitors who stop by to check this site out. I commend you for giving Cheryl the chance to see the light and change her ways and to show you, Arlo, and ArloNet and all the members who help make ArloNet what it is, the respect we all deserve. Other webmasters wouldn't have been so patient and/or tolerant. We are all human here and it should come as no surprise that we have all been pushed to our limits. So, before giving Cheryl another chance to insult you and the rest of us by playing us all for fools, I am asking that Cheryl be not allowed to post anymore on the boards permanently ,in leiu of the reputation and credibility of ArloNet that's at stake here. I chose not to e-mail you with this matter but rather to make it a public announcement so that the other members can respond with either their support or objection. I feel we have wasted our time giving Cheryl the satisfaction of coming back time and time again only to insult you and the good people here at ArloNet. I would like to see us all move forward and get on with bigger and better things. Thank You

I guess if I thought things (Cheryl) could not be changed, I would not have continued to post here. (But I do LOVE this Controversial Topics Board...!)

As a dog obedience instructor, you have to believe, and I do believe, that improper behavior can nearly always be changed. I learned to do this with correction, praise and humor. I've helped people with puppies and with 14 year old dogs, from goofy, jumpy Golden Retrievers, to highly aggressive Bull Mastiffs. The definition of "correction" varies from dog to dog. I do not make the same correction on a tiny Maltese that pulls on the leash that I do on a huge German Shepherd Dog that attempts to bite its handler.

In 6 years, working with maybe 800 dogs, we have had 1 dog that we requested the owner remove from the class, because it was disruptive to the class, aggressive toward other dogs, and causing danger to its handler and the rest of the class.

I know that this may seem like a goofy comparison, but asking that handler not to return was one of the hardest decisions I have ever made. I don't envy Dave such a choice, but I certainly support him in whichever decision he makes.

Thanks starchild. Now I have a John Denver Song milling through my mind.

*Thank you Kim, for the laugh later joke. Your responce was 'contagious' lets say*

*thanks sherry for asking (unanswered) questions

*** Hey smurf. We have more in common than I had imagined. You watching Survivor......(even tho I don't bet, I KNOW whos gonna win..LOL) bet cha???

or ya, Cheryl. Take time to listen to some Buffy. Recommend her work on Vanguard...

Personnel favorite...."Circle Game"

*and go round, and round, and round, in the circle game, and go round, and round and round, we go round, and round, and round, in the circle game, round and round, and round. ....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave:

I don't think this has been counterproductive at all... but maybe that's the optimist in me. I'm hoping that Cheryl will actually GET what myself and others have been trying to tell her. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean to suggest that it was counterproductive in regards to this one particular issue,it isn't, I meant in the big picture as to the vibes it creates here, from both sides of the issue. That's all.

Star? "Improper behavior can nearly always be changed"? I would hope that we could proceed more from the perspectives of dialogue, understanding, compromise and tolerance than from mind control and behavior training. Your analogy with regard to your line of work concerns me a bit as it relates to this issue with humans.

Levi. A ban is to harsh in my view, and might speak worse for the ban-er than the ban-e.

Larry,

That's why I rarely try to make such analogies, on a lot of levels they do not work. It's just an easy one for me to make, given my history. Rather than edit the analogy, I apologize for any confusion it has added.

However, in response to your post - successful dialogues are two way. One side listens to the other, interprets and responds to the issues in its entirety, and vice versa.

A dialogue is not what is happening here. A number of people post a number concerns to the issue, and then we get a chapter of the "word according to Cheryl". This can only go so long without the courtesy of full communication ("listening" and responding to the points being made) being extended from one of the parties, before it does denegrate to correction - whether that be "blah", banning, or simply giving up on her and ignoring the situation completely.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Starchild:

As a dog obedience instructor, you have to believe, and I do believe, that improper behavior can nearly always be changed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have avoided getting involved on this forum up to this point on account of agreeing with a previously stated (ithink) opinion that it is unproductive. Star, I avoid strife when I can, but I must disagree with your viewpoint. Behavioral adjustment techniques may work with animals, but it is simple wheel spinning when applied to humans. Human beings are able to think, make decisions, and do their own will. Persons can sometimes modify their own behavior, but it is only on account of an inward decision. The only outward technique that makes radical changes is coercion. Animals have only instincts, and are thus subject to behavioral training. (gwen steps off her soap box)

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by gwenpen on Mar 15, 2001 ---</FONT></center>

Levi, I admire you for your bold post. However, (in my opinion) wouldn't work.

Larry I can't believe starchild would 'intently' mean to degrade 'Anyone'!

*Allot of us here have tried to actually help Cheryl. Sometimes people can't be helped unless they get a dose of harsh reality. I think people would be very happy to learn that Cheryl is in therapy, and her family is #1 priority in her life. I think months of therapy, to reinsure in herself, that She is #1. and Mike. Not Arlo Guthrie. It doesn't mean Arlo can't be her favorite singer....

**Going into therapy is nothing to be ashamed of, and if that day comes. Consider me gone...

*So on that note....(If I, like Levi, may be so bold) In all sincerity, Cheryl, have you ever considered 'Group Therapy'????

Gwen,

I apologized for posting that analogy all ready. I am sorry if you had not read the apology prior to your post. Since I in effect withdrew it as a legitimate analogy, I don't think I need to debate the issue further.

You think animals only work on instinct? An interesting opinion, and another that I do not care to debate.

I do not apologize for believing that improper behavior can be changed. I still think that's true, it's just the responsibility of individual displaying that behavior. What's cool about humans vs. dogs is that, if you sit down with a human and say, "look, this was wrong for you to do, because ... " they can comprehend what you said, acknowledge it, and work to change that behavior. With a dog, you just get a blank look and the exact same behavior, over and over again.

So, on some levels, even an imperfect analogy does work.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>[i][b]Originally posted by gwenpen:

Human beings are able to think, make decisions, and do their own will.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and herein lies the truth of the matter! i think what some of us are trying to say is: that we have let cheryl know repeatedly and in no uncertain terms that what she is choosing to say and how she is choosing to say it, is being found to be offensive, hurtful, spiteful, mean and assorted other negative words....AND instead of examing her own comments and taking any responsibility for them, she continues to make excuses and actually tries to put the blame on 'us' for misinterpreting her so called jokes. (thereby insulting our intelligence as well)...

so it seems to me that gwen is exactly right in her thoughts and that cheryl is very obviously and deliberately continuing to hurt and insult people she professes to care about and IS capable of making better decisions but chooses not to. so what does that say about cheryl?

Star, I think I understood the intent, and the "scientific concept" of your analogy, and don't think it was done in an attempt to degrade anyone. I wanted to make that clear.

I knew that, Larry (but thanks!) and I don't mind revising my weird little theories when they don't work.

Hey, at least I didn't try for a goat theory!

No actually I didn't see it, Star. I plunged ahead cuz I was aggravated. That's wwhy we live in a free country....to hold different opinions. Truce?

Once the votes are tallied, the person will have to leave the island immediately. And the next one voted off the island is....

(Sorry to rip Sherry off on this one - but it was just so funny).

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by Dave on Mar 15, 2001 ---</FONT></center>