Wordy is OK. That's what forums are for - words.

There are some things the administration is doing that you can take issue with in regard to all this. They're not all in agreement themselves. I do think it would be better for everyone if John Ashcroft weren't part of it. That said, I'd have to agree, things are what they are and terrorism needs to be dealt with. To be sure it needs to be dealt with on the root level but that's not enough. One of the things that simply is what it is, is that a government's job is first to protect its people and I do think that making it clear that committing terrorist acts against the US, or offering aid and comfort to those who do is a big mistake is the most effective thing that can be done in the short term.

On the other hand, as domestic policies roll on it gets harder to want to line up behind the administration that we've got, or at least it does for me. Kind of the opposite of the LBJ years.

shannon very coinsodental. B. Joels lyrics. Sort of like that John Denver song...'Rhyme and Reasons'...Definately fitting song for this war, written a couple (3) decades ago..

**I'm with Walter Cronkite. Censorship is nessessary during war-time. If we live long enough, the truth will come out...Besides us be so cival, probly no one would want to see Bin Laden tortured, or treated unfairly now would we...History books, might be more accurate in the future...We'll see!?

*TODD hear this...lol...jus kidding....<img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif" width=15 height=15>

This is but a war of words, illusions and shadows, the mist slowly parts and we find our gas stations belong not to good old mister jones down the road, nor even to some middle eastern, rather they now belong to some goverment in south america, and we must send thanks for our daily bread to holland or some other country as even our food stores now belong to someone else, try and buy american and you will discover that our cars now come not from motown but from some place called a free trade zone, no this war like so many others, is all about the dollar and it's all mighty power.

But maybe someday these wars will end, for who can attack us without shooting themselves in the foot? and so it goes

yeah, pat...lord knows how you can drone on...

it still doesn't hide the obvious loneliness of a moon-eyed cow.

to avoid misunderstandings, i will point out that the above compliment was meant for rb..
not pat or muffy...actually from what i hear they are both doing knockup jobs at covering the war on terrorism from their respective
locals...they being terrorists in their own right, this makes sound sense to me.

Free Belize Now!!

You know, it's getting downright scary to think that whenever someone has anything that isn't completely a patriotic sentiment, or doesn't agree with our President nowadays, they're branded a traitor, and out of line. Soon we'll all be sprechen Deustche, ja? Or at least, start wearing hoopskirts and watching Ozzie & Harriet again.

I do not think it was the least out of line to say "no wonder people are trying to bomb us". In fact, when September 11th occured, and shortly after when people started realizing the where's and why's of it all, most of the people I know (young and old alike), while in shock at the reality of it, weren't the least bit suprised at the amount of enemies this country has. I'm not saying it should have happened, or that we deserve to have 3,000 innocent people die. Of course not, it was an evil act, and NOBODY deserves that.

However, while I won't argue that there are plenty of other countries in the Capitalist world that do much of the same underhanded, scary stuff we do; we happen to #1-be the most prominent world power #2-be the richest world power, enabling us to carry out such a bullying foreign policy and be as pushy and arrogant as we are. The more prominent and affluent your country is, the more the world takes notice at what you do.
Lest we forget we were the first and only nation to use a nucleaur weapon not once, but twice on another nation, and while yes we were in a state of war, we wiped out plenty of innocent lives. The CIA in of itself IS a terrorist organization. So is the IRA in Ireland, which this country financially supports. (This is an Irish gal saying this!)

To say we should trust our leaders like Ashcroft and Bush in a time like this? I'm sorry, but I think that's naive. This is all just my opinion by the way, I totally respect that others here completely disagree with me! lol. But that's what forums are for, to agree to disagree while still being able to freely state our opinions and thoughts. It's what makes this countryalso truly great. I am a patriot, I do love my country. But there's nothing wrong with being a skeptic. I'm just too well aware of what we do that you don't hear about in our own papers, and how the rest of the world sees us. Espcially after all we've done as a nation. I never trust politicians, no matter what war we're in. I never trust anyone in government, because they all lie, and most of what they do is essentially in their own self-interest. Yes, even NOW, they're still up there in Congress and the Senate filibustering about power and money and things that really have little to do with us, unless it involves snatching $ out of our wallet, or screwing over the poor.

Do I hope we win this thing? Yes of course. Who doesn't want to feel safe again, even if it's all only a feeling, and not a fact? Do I hope we kill that mofo bin Ladin and his crew, or at least, cause him extreme amounts of pain? Absolutely, I completely condemn anyone who does such acts. And I mean anyone.

So why is it WE can terrorize South America, have air bases in countries we refuse to trade with (Cuba/Saudi Arabia), pull out our troops when promising to help a conquered people (Somalia, Rwanda, Kuwait), and fight wars we have no business being in (Vietnam)? Because we're the land of the free. And that is why we have enemies. And that is why it is no surprise to me, or anyone else who is as skeptical as I am, that there are people in this world who want to bomb us. I don't like that they want to any more then you do, nor would I want them to bomb us. But there are reasons.

As I said...strictly all my opinions...I'm sure the hate mail is coming soon <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif" width=15 height=15>

yesterday i heard an administration supporter actually say that,,the president's handling of the war on terrorism should give him wide berth to make any necessary actions in reference to other issues, like the economy, abortion rights, and on and on.

if they send me a letter telling me to show up at the train station tomorrow for decontamination,,and to please bring a towel..

i ain't fucking going!

it's all one big lie and there's nothing new under the sun.

Haliburton Rules!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by todd:

yesterday i heard an administration supporter actually say that,,the president's handling of the war on terrorism should give him wide berth to make any necessary actions in reference to other issues, like the economy, abortion rights, and on and on.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The scary thing is that there is a lot of truth in that, and he has started to exploit it already. But since "W" seems to have as much Forest Gump in him as anything else(Bonzo the chimp, Alfred E. Newman Dan Quayle), it might even work for him.
Cashing in on postive approval ratings is nothing new, and can be spun by the right spin doctors into some sort of pseudo-mandate. Empowering George W. Bush might have not only been the worst thing that the terrorists did to themselves, but to us as well!

Well, since we have a population right now that can't see through it's own nationalistic fervor, we're gonna get what we got comin to us. Another cold war (with multiple nations), soaring deficits, growing class gaps, the end of a women's control of her own body, and the destruction of our resources for greed.

Basically, we're about the repeat the failures and obscenities of the Reagan years.

"The blind leading the blind" has never been more true than it is right now.

One thing I am glad about is that we do seem to have been trying to limit what is known as "collateral damage". That pretty much amounts to the positive things I can say. I am cynical enough about our current leadership however, to believe that this effort wouldn't have happened were they left to their own devices without international coverage. I don't think we can trust the Shrub and his handlers to act in any way i would recognize as moral by themselves.

The approval ratings i see do not surprise me in the least. More's the pity. I have thought for a long time that the population as a whole is unable to recognize our enlightened self-interest. Rather, we focus on the short-term feel-good measures and are afraid to ask and answer the difficult questions. Chauvinism runs rampant in times like this. We arrogantly assert that we know what's best and that somehow the USA is always right.

One question. When Bush avowed that he would destroy all who support terrorism, why wasn't Washington on the target list?. Oh right. I forgot. Our terrorists are "freedom fighters".

Beg pardon?

Ummm, I seem to have touched on something -- a sore point perhaps? -- but I'm not quite sure I know what it is that I touched on. I'm pretty sure it's not what I was talking about, though. Possibly we're having different conversations here. It happens. Apparently I offended somebody, though -- and wish I knew who and how.

BTW, when I say "trust", I'm definitely not talking about blind and unquestioning conformity. I'm positive that you don't know where I'm coming from if you think I would.

Might be true about nationalistic fervor, but the opposite applies, too. For some people there is nothing bad that can happen to the US that we didn't deserve, nothing that isn't our own fault, completely. Nothing is ever more complicated than that. In its own way it's as simpistic and as knee-jerk as jingoism, even if it is accompanied by facts, statistics and lots of rhetoric.

I'm baaaacckkk!!! My modem arrived! Ya'll can't get so wordy without me! It's not fair!<img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/bawling.gif" width=21 height=16>

What ALL (or at least MOST) of you said. In reading the last few days' posts all at once, I see more agreement than disagreement. Many of the differences are semantic.

I can't imagine anyone who would be <u>here</u> for long would trust politicians blindly, nor would they feel other than love for their own country--not the leaders, but the country (This land is your land...). On the other hand they wouldn't be blind to the evils and excesses perped by our own government; nor would they fail to see why other countries might not care for us too much. Comprehending doesn't exclude hating the fact that it is so.

What we have to trust is not "them"--the politicians--but we pretty much have to trust that they will do the right thing on the international/security problems; as Pat said, there is no other choice right now. Call it hope rather than trust, if that's more comfortable. That doesn't mean we have to hand them all the keys to the kingdom, and I don't the the GP is doing that. I hope I'm right, but I'm trying to hedge my bets by returning to more active involvement.

Posted by Muffy, seconded by me: That is the critical factor, IMHO also. The daily contact I have at work with "ordinary" people tells me they are responding in their own ways. I think the media exaggerate the amount of jingoism and interpret a pretty encouraging real spiritual shift as a major "return" to fundamentalism. For reporters to say people are being both more rational and truly spiritual would not "sell papers" as would reporting that people are doing something extreme. I think people are thinking more and feeling more, and ignoring less. At least, I know I am.

Okay, whose turn is it next to steal into my house at night and kill my modem? <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif" width=15 height=15> Blame Earthlink--they sent me the new one!

I think that what so many people are trying to say is that while it is important to punish those who attacked the USA, it is also inportant to understand the root cause of the attacks and to correct it.

I see the root to be found in people being made to feel helpless to improve their own lot in life and a deep convection that they have been wronged. We here in the US grow lots of our own terrorist, we just are more willing to understand their motives....

Just read the list, the youth gangs of every major city, the KKK, prolife, anti-loggers, white power, animal rights and so on. I think if I were an Enron employee, I would be thinking of building some pipe bombs myself.


America is only a land of justice in as it treats it's least important citizen, and shows respect towards the rights of all.


but what the hell do I know, I am just sitting here on the sidelines hoping that the evil born of this day is only short lived. I do not have the answers, but I am in hopes that maybe I can find the right questions.

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by Nathen on Feb 13, 2002 ---</FONT></center>

Ceashel writes;

Okay, whose turn is it next to steal into my house at night and kill my modem?

______________________


i checked the duty roster. i believe it's larry's turn to keep your dumb ass off the internet.

the us military wants the opium markets shut down in afghanistan...i wonder why?

Okay, I'll leave cookies out if it's Larry.

Why, indeed, would they want to shut it down after all this time it's been supported by us? hmmm?