The thing(s) that make revelations (both BIG "R" & little "r") such a bummer is their unpleasant and catastrophic nature. Any positive aspects of revelations are negated (to my thinking) because they only pertain to a time which occurrs following death. No revelations of great peace and joy whilst we still breathe - gotta wait for admission into some sky-kingdom for that show.

Damn! I was just there for Woody's 100th. I should have looked for revelations.

Blind Willie sho can revelate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hucTDV1Fvo

An Atheist quotes Scripture:

You know it is funny that you say that about Woody's 100 because I believe the 4 people who come here and express themselves on a routine basis were probably in somehow motivated to do it by growing up in the century influenced by the "observations of Woody" and ultimately by the apocalyptic revelations of Bob Dylan when we were kids. I mean I was 8 or 9 years old and chanting revelations about the once grand idealism of American Democracy dissolving into a militarist imperial chasm with the ultimate potential of nuclear holocaust. It's a hard, It's a hard, It's a hard rain a going to fallllllll!... Even then we all new (at least I think we all new) that it was not American Idealism that was bad but the direction we as people were taking it.

So I would ask you in John the Revelators time, if you take out the sacred semi-ritualistic goofy religious tones and scary monsters and (all of which can be found in the rantings of Bob Dylan in those broadsides of long ago) and just focus on what he says about his times and how the hard rain was going to fall. HMMM, Where to start? I know just after the intro but before the loony consequences of the hard rain. Since we know he was a day away from Ephesus, the center of Paul's church, let's see what he directly says to the people there:

2 “To the angel[a] of the church in Ephesus write (this is the Revelator talking):

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.


So he says "You have forsaken the love you Had at first." There has got to be something there but it is all wrapped up in mystical lingo that is hard to decipher. Let me make it big and see if that helps

"YOU HAVE FORSAKEN THE LOVE YOU HAD AT FIRST"

There must be some hidden meaning and I can not figure it out. I wish I had Bob Dylan here to help me figure this out, he is good at that quasi mystical mumbo jumbo!

I mean, a dumb ass atheist like my self would tend to put it in context and think he was saying:

You know Paul, when he was alive, and Jesus before him...well I don't recall them being mysogynist or as accepting of slavery as these new fangled ideas you are introducing here. I mean Paul was accepting of the fact that cutting off an adult man's foreskin my not be
the best idea but accepting Romanism and Greekism and their ideas of slavery and class structure..I think Jesus and later Paul were pretty clearly against that!


These are just my visions and revelations. The funny thing is...when I look at it in this light....from my atheist view point...then all those awful visions and bad dreams in the monster movie that the Revelator ends his broadside with are really aimed at people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell and even Osama Bin Laden....People who have corrupted the simple philosophic teaching of Jesus into a mechanism of hate and destruction. That is probably just because I am an Atheist!

I think you're right in that there is nothing wrong with American idealism even today. I'm not sure we should label it American, though. I think the same idealism exists with all people. The problem is there is always someone there to take advantage of this childlike idealism. The 666 Club and The Moral Minority are definitely proof of that. The idealism is there to be taken advantage of, that is it's nature. If it builds up defenses against these demons and monsters, it is no longer idealistic.

The problem with words written down by men is that that is all they will ever be.

Are you sure the revlelator was not one of these monsters?

Your last paragraph sums it up quite well.

Just to clarify though, my reference to Woody was in response to Kevin's "gotta wait for admission into some sky-kingdom for that show" statement. We were half way up a 12,000 foot mountain. I'll have to admit it got pretty cosmic with all the music and Jimmy reading all these Woody quotes. I've been wishing for the time to look some of them up because I think they would add to this conversation.

While I don't consider myself an atheist, I can't seem to subscribe to any of the organized religions. I am okay with Unitarian Universalists, but would hesitate to call them organized, and don't support them or attend.

That being said my biggest charitable contribution is to a church somewhere in Massachusetts. I've never been, but really want to go because I can somehow always seem to feel it's presence.

before i read this (heraclitus' post up there), it being from your own perspective, and i can appreciate a perspective from your own perspective, as a thought ya know, anyway, during reading something else back there i was remembering learning or being taught about revelations from early as i can remember on...you know, there is the thing for example. say, with the 7 heads and 7 diadems (or was it 10 diadems?) and all kinds of things, pick any part...and it's like, "okay, you know what this is telling us, it means this and that and clearly if this and that is what it means which it is, it is clearly trying to tell us something, which is this, and everyone needs to know it, so they know..." (not just revelations but the bible in general)
and i would be like, oh....i am not sure i ever would have thought of that...are you sure?....usually only mulling it over in thought inside my head...but a time or two something like that would pop out of me (some goofy kid in the middle of the room) creating an awkward chorus of crickets moment

it was enough to make a person feel doomed sometimes

it lacks the detail of what you were saying, but it is what i was thinking about, just as an example

enjoyed reading your thoughts too, goofus
(oh, and i got the mountain sky kingdom thing you referenced)

Actually, I might agree with him more than I disagree with him. So he took some artistic licence in his description of the apocalypse. Maybe he couldn't say things explicitly because them Romans could be quite repressive. Romans and Nazi had a lot of the same ideas after all when it comes to some things.

I don't necessarily think he was a monster. The Romans probably did.

When I speak of American Idealism I speak of a few of the lines in the Declaration of Independence. Lines that when they were written were really nothing more than dreams of men with no mechanism of reality. You know "all men created equal ... blah blah blah". They were and are little more than words on a page. Whether you call it American Idealism or Humanism (oh, the dreaded word) it is still a noble goal. That Independence document talks of dissolving a bond between peoples and that revelation document warns of the dangers of forming bonds between peoples.

Strange Dreams?

Seems like I remember strange dreams.

well I have had them before
and I'll have them again
it's the only time
makes me feel like I
am my own best friend

(I don't know, the John Prine thing got the best of me?)

Now you gotta admit old Mick Avory looks excited here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HueiKoc1 ... re=related

then you need a rock roll moment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZM8z_jF8Os

youth haunts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZMmV6xX ... re=related

amazing how much of your youth you can find
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKpbxGKz ... re=related

Now that I have thought about it i probably would not have agreed with him on too much.
I mean, he was a radical pissed off (probably) exiled Israelite who was quite religious and under the spell of an avenging Messiah while I am a fundamentalist Atheist who sees god as the traditional delusion that imposes caste structures on human society. Leviathons and Behemoths and Tiamat and Marduk and saviors on White horses all have purpose but to me it is all just a story a fiction with some interesting metaphors and thoughts, but not really holy.

If you put it in the us and them category
he was far more like his them than I am!

that does not mean he is a monster
perhaps i am?

i don't think you are a monster :(

I think we all have the potential to be monsters - most of us are able to overcome our dark thoughts with positive enLIGHTenment quite naturally.

And the world can really get mixed up sometimes......it's not uncommon for one person's monster to simultaneously be someone else's savior.