ZoWie, WTF are you talking about? Who's calling you a nasty name? And who's not arguing facts? There are so many facts in this situation that it's hard to keep up with but most of this thread has its share of facts.

Iconoclasts gotta be able to deal with disagreement, don't they? Or else, what's the point?

FUCK SUNSHINE LEFTISTS.
FUCK BORG.
STOP TRYING TO ASSIMILATE ME.
IT'S FUTILE.
I'M YOUR WORST FUCKING NIGHTMARE.

-z

________________

that works for me...yep, that dog will hunt!


We starve look, at one another short of breath
Walking proudly in our winter coats
Wearing smells from laboratories, facing a dying nation
Of moving paper fantasy
Listening for the new told lies
With supreme visions of lonely tunes

(the flesh failures)

Actually Deb, although I don't remember where I saw it now, I did read some sort of statistic last week that said soemthing like 90% of women under regimes like the Taliban are chonically depressed.

How someone would manage to get that kind of a survey is beyond me, but this did look like a legitimate study was done.

Nathen, women throughout Afghanistan are risking death by doing things like running an underground network for things like makeovers, of all things. They do it not because they are vain, but because they look for a way, any way, they can to defy what is happening to them and still have a chance to live, hoping that things will change. Makeup they can possibly hide, especially with what they are forced to wear. Openly speaking their minds would pretty much guarantee death.

I have no doubt there are some women there who feel the Taliban is right. Should we ignore the rest then? After all, some may like living that way, so we should turn our heads at the fact that women are being beaten and killed because the bottom of their skirt flipped up while they were walking and some man got...allah forbid!!!... a little glimpse of an ankle.

Oh, and the part I forgot to mention before. The little "paradise on earth" the Taliban has created for itself over in Afghanistan is it's vision of the way things should be, and its fairly well-known that their goal is to make the whole world this way. That's ok too, righ? After all, some women may prefer it that way.....

Let's face it, if you can truly hold that we have no business fighting the Taliban in light of all they've done, then you, Nathen, are truly a hypocrite, given the views on racism you've railed on about here before.

Do you also claim when a woman gets raped that she asked for it? I see little difference between that statement and saying that maybe these women have chosen that life. Guess what, when your other choice is certain death, it can make the other choice look pretty good. If these women were free to decide NOT to participate in that lifestyle, I'd agree with you. The only thing these women are free to do is die if they disagree or slip-up.

I've wondered if one of the best things we could do over there is just arm some or all of the women. If that happened, I wonder how long the Taliban would survive.

well, that wouldn't surprise me, kim. i didn't know of any statistics, but i'm still so impresssed with the women who have kept their underground network alive!

your last statement reminds me of an op/ed piece i read recently. for the life of me, i can't remember who wrote it, but it was a woman. her advice to the military was to arm the women of afghanistan with a few ak-47's. she said they'd be able to easily hide them under their burqas...and the taliban wouldn't even see the smiles on their faces as they blew them away.

the makeover thing makes sense to me...anything that breaks the hold...

what i am most proud and amazed of about these women..is that while the men sleep they get up gather the children and teach at an ever mobile school under threat of death if found out.

such courage!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZoWie:

Fuck this crap. I haven't heard that Russia one since, uh, there WAS a Russia.

..(stuff deleted)...

-Z<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since Deb took point #1 on this, I'll go with #2. This wasn't directed at you in the least Zowie. If you were actually reading anyone's posts...actually taking the time to consider anyone else's point of view but your own.....you would realize that my question about preferring China or Russia was in direct response to something Joe Bloggs said...the post specifically mentioned China and Russia.

But it's pretty obvious from the rants you've posted thus far that the one refusing to work with facts here is you. Which is why I've pretty much refrained all along from commenting when you posted. It's rather obvious that you've made up your mind that pretty much anyone who disagrees with you is on the side of absolute evil, and out to get you personally besides.

You claim to not name-call, and yet that's pretty much all I see throughout most of your posts. You claim to be offended by people painting the left with one big brush, yet anyone who disagrees with you are "bushheads", trying to make people into "dittoheads", and, above all else it seems, out to get you personally.

I enjoy a good debate. But debate doesn't mean that you get paranoid and convinced everyone is picking on you personally when they happen to disagree with you.

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by Kim on Oct 22, 2001 ---</FONT></center>

From where I sit, that's why I like the middle of the road!

*doesn't take away the fact, I BELIEVE in just two sides. The side I'm on, is up for arguement, but it's not a 'hear no evil' 'see no evil' philosophy.

these words might be pure dribble, but at least I am up for debate.

**And Zowie, I hear no 'Tony Blair' bashing. Doesn't he fall into that Bushwacker league???

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kim:

You claim to not name-call, and yet that's pretty much all I see throughout most of your posts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll cop to the name calling thing. I feel threatened and my brain goes away sometimes.

I apologize for not thinking less from my crotch.

However, the current state of this forum is not one i care to have anything further to do with. This is way past debate, it's a loyalty contest, and:


<center>FUCK LOYALTY CONTESTS</center>

-Z
gone
this time i mean it

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZoWie:

gone
this time i mean it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, yeah, thats what they all say...but its easier said than done, huh?

i'm not even in this fucking "debate" but when you start stomping your feet and threatening the "take my marbles and go home"...well you do get my attention.

I think this thread has been hyjacked! Can you believe this shit?!?!?!

It's a war, ZoWie. A different one, to be sure, but it's a war. It's not a loyalty contest, but lots of people are not real patient with constant opposition right now. There are lots of things that are great about this country and lots that aren't. Much like life, a lot of it's how you look at it. Right now, people need to feel good about the country. We really don't like war, but it's important to support those who are actually fighting it. It's important not to succumb to depression ourselves in facing a newly uncertain future and we need to think about the good stuff for that, too. Also, the stark comparisons between idealogies make even our harsher policies seem almost benign when seen side by side with Islamic fundamentalist values and beliefs. Which suck. No cultural relativism there for me - they suck, their rules suck, the way that they want people to live their lives sucks.

Most of the things that need work in the US aren't going to be fixed right now anyway, and when we get back to those things it'll be with a changed set of circumstances, so picking at every wart and magnifying some of them just seems..churlish. It also reminds some of us of ourselves when we were younger and that's always a bit embarrassing.

Can you believe this shit ? Larry, this is all your fault! You come in hear and start the most controversialist, tropiversialist, controtopicalist, controceptionalist threads about Country Joe McDonald and *WHAM*!... you've got a full blown war out of control. Stick to herding cats until you realize the powder keg potential that some of your threads have!

Moderating Arlonet boards......herding cats.......I don't see any difference really!!! DO you??

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rbrown:

Some home-less people choose to live that way.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Typical right-wing crap.

When do we get to the part where you say that the homeless got that way by behaving immorally or irrationally? That's another mantra I love to hear.

Did you get your impresssion of the homeless from conservative "talk" shows, or have you ever actually taken the time to TALK to a homeless person? It never ceases to amaze me how many of 'em are neglected veterans of the wars that right-wingers love to stage.

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by joe bloggs on Oct 22, 2001 ---</FONT></center>

Oh, Larry! You missed one! meow