There is no right side or wrong side re Israel but there is right and wrong on both sides. As i have mentioned in other threads i served with the UN in Lebanon, Iraq, Cyprus and visited Israel a number of times. Israel is a Jewish State that includes native second class citizens. I have given my opinion earlier as to a possible solutions. Both sides lobby where they will and the Palestinian has a lot of support in Ireland while there is indeed a large Jewish Lobby which appeals to a Christian fundamentalist US with resulting success. The mess the world is in today and in particular the ME requires more than the status quo to continue but that requires a better kind of leadership humanity has today. As long as religious fundamentalism continues to grow around the world peace and goodwill will probably decrease to the eventual point of human extinction. Who knows.
As for the bloody war that was waged by Irish/Brits. That war is finally over and the peace among neighbours continues to be a work in progress. We are all the same and all will end up the same but it would be something awesome if we actually were to reach out the hand of both friendship and human fellowship to all like minded folks around the world. Otherwise its business as usual i suppose?

why do you qualify them as christian fundamentalists? it is just christians!

it is my experience all christians, even those who gassed and burnt the prodigal Israelites in the previous century and "holiday" christians in America today, believe in some cosmic link (Jesus) to a jewish state in Palestine. The whole Jerusalem has some special meaning bullshit?

My ancestors were kicked out of a lot of places over the centuries including Ireland. Why don't I get to choose a "homeland" designated by my "god" and get billions of bucks from America to occupy and defend it?

can't argue with any of that except, maybe your ancestors (including the Irish) believed they in fact got a new "homeland" from their god/s to the detriment of the native americian Indians and continue to occupy and defend it to this present day?

I do have a lot of time for America and those Americian 'freedom' values that include treating all women and men equal. Sadly politics and religion eventually get in the way of such notions by creating the 'them and us' stuff. Who knows maybe humanity will grow up some day before it extinct itself for the good of the few? (i wonder what Jesus would have made of all of it?)

it kind of highlights the scriptures i posted back there (amid comments) (on pages 6, 7, 8, 9…), i was certainly aware at seeing many parallels today, with that one (the one you mention of a belief in a cosmic link to jesus and god,which plays no small part),,, and on so many levels besides.

Or, maybe the worlds empires back after world war 1 didn't think supporting a colonization effort using me and my god as an excuse to disrupt local political stability in some area of the globe making it easy to control and dominate in the name of empire was worth the cost?

just a thought

why does everybody always bring up native americans in these discussions
i never killed a native american nor did i ever take their land or property
i grew up in a community with native americans and count many of them as good friends
and for the record I never owned a slave or espouse racism

OK! we cannot dwell on the past when looking toward the future!

the greed and lust of a big bully doesn't mind who, what, or where he cock-a-doodle-do's. The world is in a mess because of mankind's efforts to subdue at any cost. (The native americans seemed an appropriate example. Almost any 'natives' might probably do?)

Perhaps looking towards the future using present day living and events indicate just what sort of future the generations to come can expect i.e. hatred & love, war & peace, plenty and hunger etc etc. Be nice to believe in a future something better than the present original?
Be even better if folks today could and would reach out for a brave new world rather than the sameness of present change by perhaps even positive approaches amid the negative jungle of man made despair. Perhaps create our own wee Garden rather than looking to get back to that nostalgic Garden of mass remembrance that is gone forever, buried by religion or covered in weed.

"Holiness, sacredness, enlightenment, bliss, love, compassion, surrender and a sense of humor; all these come moment by moment, inch by inch and mile after mile." - ADG.
PS (Wonder what the folks in Israel/Palestine would make of Arlo? Buddah may be worth a smile..)

To say that because someone was never a racist or owned a slave is no proof that neither EXIST or existed. There are those who would deny that racism continues to exist in America today. Perhaps some folks on this forum can be counted among their ranks. Sometimes people believe what they want to believe and ignore the facts. To gloss over a problem by saying we cannot dwell on the past only kicks the can down the road. Before a problem is solved it needs to be admitted to. We have made reparations to both Indians and Japanese over victimizing them in the past. How we move forward in creating a country in which all are truly created equal requires us to reflect on both the past and present. PBS has a great show called "Finding your Roots". It may help people to be much more empathetic toward being black in America today.

Whoops, how did I end up in this thread?

Yes really. But because i have happened to find things in the Bible, not out of context either, you label me with the lunatic Religious Right, that I call THE-MEDIA-RIGHT-STORM, for the stone throwing I've witnessed descend down into Society through the TV. I'm very confident that the day will come when the TV is taken over by the saints of the most high whose power is about shattered as Daniel 12 writes about.

All you need is love. They will no longer teach know the lord for ALL will know him, with each man's own words becoming the oracle, and they no longer claim the oracle of the lord. That is freedom.

It's very easy to give up hope, through the rotten things that were written about happening, but with the states of confusion looking to be at the boiling point, the better things to happen are getting closer every day.

Time will tell if I really did find the same new way Steve Miller sings about in this very anti-establishment space cowboy http://youtu.be/0n6Wu4aVR7A song. And I must add, that I was not conscious (him singing of a new way.) of when an awakening did happen to me about rocking down angels from the promised land. It explain Jacob's dream of angels coming up and down a ladder. Reincarnation anyone? i see many in power who may need to be born again.

I cannot recall saying racism or slavery never or even don't exist.

I don't deny racism still exists in america. (not in them ranks of denial)

I don't know about kicking the can down the road, I don't feel I have glossed over anything.

I readily admit slavery, racism, and even genocide of peoples including black americans and native americans and mexican americans and irish americans and czech americans and scandanavian americans and jewish americans and arabic americans has occurred in the past and there is no reason to believe these things wont occur again!

I am empathetic toward the problems of being black today. I am also empathetic to the problems of being unemployed or under valued today no matter what race you were born too!


STILL, I JUST WANT TO SAY, I HAVE NEVER OWNED A SLAVE OR ESPOUSED RACISM!

Pretty straight forward statement.

I also know I have had conversations with black friends where they say or refer to an incident or encounter and say "that white bitch" and i say "why she got to be a white...why not just a bitch" and then get the speech slavery and crap from somebody carrying a $500 purse and wearing a $5000 ring and ain't never picked cotton.

And further...I have been in parts of the cities of america where i have walked around the corner and felt quite uncomfortable about it (safety wise). I have encountered multiple races of people living under socioeconomic pressures that make me feel this way but I would say black people are not uncommon in these situations. Not racist...just scared!

ok, i like rock and roll. i even like inspirational songs. In fact, I am the only atheist i know that that plays Albert Brumley on the guitar just for fun (turn your radio on)!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ViJ406x_s

just dont understand your stand here Leo? it is silly to me!

it is not me that messed up the quotes.

agree with pointing this out as well. to bear in mind both.



ba dum tss!




well, there really aren't that many people who post here, and you say "some folks", plural, i am wondering who they might be? sure ain't me.



reminds me a little of what i was saying back there, referring to the scriptures i pointed out, which pretty much got marginalized into oblivion. the horrific brutal way the man there treated his concubine/wife, terrible way to treat a person to put it mildly. and all the treachery, religious indignation, and bloodshed that followed, all with the lords blessing.

marginalized right into oblivion.

The Flemish here in Antwerpen have a nice melting pot of over 150 languages with in a square mile. Always say, "Your flemish is better than my english, as Belgium as a whole is also. Playing pretty good 3-banks, and they told me at nice clinic... eating fruit again. always a bannana. Sparkling water and mouccka coffey and once get 6 straight hours of sleep a month. Be ready to play when we cross the pond again. They tell me to smile and keeping up with too much reading on OEN.org and truthout when something hits me. Post all the time about role playing to rock to get the atitude needed to excel. Everyhing with in good walks, and great mass transit, and all kind of bikes. 57 yesterday.

Many happy returns Leo. Persecuted but not crucified (yet!) Bet you're glad your birthday wasn't on the 25th of December?

Anyway Leo, you kinda jumped in when some folks were jumping up and down about what who is, what who isn't and what da hell! Who said this and who said that and who gives a fig roll!
Seasons greetings to all ye Dumpees dumping in Arlo's Dump. (Happy Christmas to those who think its CHRISTmas and to those who don't) Lets begin at base point, a bottom line.
Something like, no matter how smart(ass) we are, we can still have a laugh at our own expense and a smile at someone else having a smile at theirs. Who knows, I suppose "White Christmas" can be enjoyed and even sung by just about anyone, dreamers and visionary types alike. So this is for all you dumpees and comes with peace and goodwill as the bottom line. Put down your newspapers, flush away what you're smoking, sit down and relax and just join in wherever your wee heart takes ya, empty yourself of any oul bad stuff that you've been holding on too for too long. Grab some Arlo dumpee and maybe Just sing along while you're getting that load off you wee troubled mind. Put the muddy past behind ya, merrily eat the present knowing it's going to do some good in the future as it works its natural oul way. Probably even Bing put on a Bob Hope smile sometimes? Maybe while he was sitting and wishing that all your wee dreams (and his) would come true. So don't just sit this one out, get the finger out and sing like you were in your own in your bathroom!!! Ready, steady, seat belt off and throw caution to the wind. Let it all hang out and away you go. Don't just sit in Arlo's Dump, try singing a happy tune this season and watch the flowers spring forth!

Peace and goodwill from Ireland folks



http://youtu.be/xlIOI3fDz5c

"So now our fruit has finally come to fall, and time has ripened this eternal moment for us all. The shadows filled with former fears are swept away as if the howling winds of night have ceased to play before the dawn's early light." - ADG

There are lots of people who belong before the ICC. We could use their security to keep them in their home...while we find better things to do with their money, investing in worker owned companies all over the world is high on the to do list. We can get down to a 4 day week with reduced rents, and rock and roll having control of TV for the weekend. Bring all of the troops home after they are done train the locals to defend themselves with the weapons we leave behind. Of course we will be serving a few Thanks Giving Dinners all over the would also.