Do you actually have anything to contribute to this conversation or is it just your intention to be an asshole for the rest of your life?

I respect and embrace your freedom to judge the substance, relevence and or quality of my contributions to this conversation as you like. When I'm here, my ultimate sense of purpose is connected, affected and effected to and by my friends and aquaintances here, individually and as a social group. The threads on here can be serious, informative, creative, enlightening, and perhaps most of all, FUN! - and a lot of the time all of those things simultaneously. I have found folks here to be intelligent, witty, compassionate, respectful......full of wonder at our world and doing our best, in our own little ways, to make it work better. I assume you are doing pretty much the same in your own ways - that might be why you came here? As Goofus recently wrote, "This place feels like home." So, in that spirit, let's lighten up! I agree that we disagree on a great many things, but I have to believe your contribution to the group dynamic is as important and necessary as mine or anyone elses' - We'd all love to change the world. These forums, in many ways, represent a legacy of folks who have changed the world for the better. I can't help laughing at the thought of what Woody would have to say about all this! Just imagine what his comments might look like! This stuff was right up his alley.........

Agreed! I also think we have to be careful when reading bits and blurbs in a forum and understand that we are not writing stories or plays here. A lot of the time the reader may not understand the intentions of a statement because during such intense debate it is difficult to emote. What someone may take as a rude statement, say: "WTF?" may not be what the writer intended. Perhaps he thought he was emoting a laughing "WTF" instead of an outraged "WTF".

I think you'll find we all like a good argument here. We all realize that we will never agree on everything, while also realizing that we do agree on a lot of things. The petty name calling and characterizing needs to stop. The rude comments need to stop. If you can't make your argument without stooping to that, you don't have an argument.

Yep.

Unions Membership was in the 40% in the 50s and now its under 10%, thanks to your GOD Reagan who started to break them. Unions raised every bodies standard of living. Oh the Old Time IBEW Wirenuts, talked about the trouble Unions would have from 12 years of Republican appointed Judges. Hell, now Corporations are people. Lots of things from all sides had run amuck, but Unions were only trying to keep up with inflation, which cause was the Fed-that was not clear to me until the last 5 years. Real wages have not gone up since the 70s.

In nothing I've said, are Corporations evil, its the profiting at what ever the cost to workers and Mother Earth that I speak against. I pointed out 2 could companies, that were non-union, in Massatack. If all companies were as good to their workers as Wang and Digital were, Unions would never have been needed.

Unions are the smaller Govt that the people will always need. They are where to help fix Healthcare.

If we can provide for the common defense, that promoting the general welfare, could have just as well said, helping with the common good. The founders saw a need for The Post Office, as any caring human being, today, sees the need for affordable Healthcare.

Your kind of greedy capitalist brought money to the promised land, and killed 100s of millions of Native Americans. You call that liberty? Your kind worships worthless trash-cash as the almighty.

This is simply not true. Again, here are the actual statistics:



The number never even gets to 35% at its height, when you consider ALL workers. By the time Reagan was president, the number was closer to 17%. The number dropped about the same under Reagan as it did under Clinton.



Then explain to me how the standard of living in the US has steadily increased over the last fifty years, while union membership has tanked.



I'm sorry, but I don't understand half of what you just said here, but trust me, unions negotiate for well above any rises in inflation or any other cost of living increases. To say so otherwise is not being honest.



Leo, let's keep this honest ok? I am going to quote you directly here: "Mom and Pop shops can't compete with the prices set by these huge corporate parasites" "Thanks in huge part to the Multi-national Fascist Corporations who take the profits out of town at midnight" "I'll take them over your greedy, slimy corporations raping this earth and its people"



And tell me, what happened to those companies?



Unions are government now? Geez, I hope not. I am not trying to be rude here, but this quote above makes absolutely no sense, especially the second sentence..



They didn't say that did they? They could have said, we should give everyone a color TV too (soon to be considered a basic human right I'm sure), but they didn't say that did they? That is because the founders were about independence, not dependence. The "common good" is not a role for government.



The difference between you and the founders is that they would not have made that a function of government. To compare the post office (which is going down the tubes fast btw) to socialized medicine, is quite a stretch don't you think? And if you think people are going to be happy about receiving the same level of service from their health care providers as they do from their local post office, I think you need to reconsider it for a moment.



And the "native Americans" killed each other in war after war after war. The only real difference is, they had no means to record their bloody history, like the Europeans did. Please, socialists like you created things like the Nazis. The Nazis started out with the same anti-rich, anti-corporation (until they needed them) and anti-capitalist message you praise here. Then when you realize it doesn't work, you begin the blame game and start gassing your opponents. No thank you, I will take our system of government instead.

Oh knew the Unions were once close 40%. They and small business helped build a once ok middle class. They raised every bodies standard of living, because to avoid them, companies paid their workers more. Real wages have not gone up since the 70s, while profits have gone through the roof at what ever the cost to mankind and mother earth. That is the predatory capitalism I will always speak out against. Adams sign a law requiring sailors to have HC. It sounds to me that you would not allow people to join a union, or for States to have single payer as Vermont has. Affordable Healthcare is a need of our time. What they just babbled-on about for over a year only helped their corporate insurance masters. White Man killed far more Indians then they did to each other. You do worship the dollar as the almighty, do you not? The Govt does a great job of helping its Corporate masters.

I'm sorry Leo, you are probably a nice guy and all, but at some point in your life you are going to realize that when people say stuff and don't back it up with any kind of facts or statistics, then what they are saying really holds no weight. Just about everything you have said in the last 2-3 pages here, I have refuted with sources. You always come back with stuff with no sources. How would you like it if I said: "John Lennon ate handicapped babies every day for lunch. He preferred them barbecued." and I passed it along as fact with nothing to back it up other than my word and "there is no need to question it"?

I do not worship the almighty dollar, you however hunt it. You think it is ok to tell people what they should be doing with their money. You want to sniff out every dollar and give it a purpose. I think you would see it a bit different if it was me governing where every cent of your money was going.

The reason The Post Office is in the red, is because The GOP made a law requiring them to fund health care 75 years in the future. Its not just speculation that they were trying to break 1 of the last best Unions we have. I've never had trouble getting or sending mail. They also have not taken a dime from the Govt since the 80s.

It puzzles me how DC on that HC bs plan, couldn't have combined Kucinich wanting a public option at State levels, with the GOP plans on Health Coops. It was an Insurance CEO on Bill Moyers who said that a public option would work so well, that the Insurance companies would not be able to compete. Hey, I'm staying here in Belgium, to marry, and they got Healthcare that works. If America doesn't fix its HC. the price will double in 10 years.

The more I learn of Ike, I would be his kind of conservative for he knew what FDR put in place was as needed then as it is now. Oh you will find something to knock Ike for... Its common practice in this age, which I am quite sure comes from what I call THE-MEDIA-RIGHT-STORM.

HAHAHA! Oh man, that is funny.. I guess email has nothing to do with it, or the fact that USPS, FEDEX, etc., do a much better job than overpaid public sector union workers do? Those evil capitalists, how dare they compete with government?! You know how many times I have gone to the post office in the last 3 years? Twice..

As for the GOP being responsible for the doomed post office, here are some FACTS:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432/The_Tru ... ncial_Mess



So please, save the "Media Matters" talking points for someone else.



How's the King doing there?



I think you enjoy making up the world in some weird image. You do know that Ike was anti-communist right? Your kind of conservative eh?

There was also another "conservative" who liked FDR. His name was George W. Bush. He even expanded entitlements by starting Medicare part D. GW must be your kind of conservative too..

Looking back, perhaps I was a little flippant in my response.. My point is, government involvement in health care not only increases costs, but reduces quality.

Let's do a hypothetical ok?

Let's say the country is a 100% free market capitalistic economy. You and I are both doctors with the same experience and education. Being the money worshiping evil capitalist that I am, I decide to set my office visit rates to $1000, because I want to make the most money I can. You on the other hand have "nobler" intentions and charge say, $35 per office visit. That is enough to cover your costs and put some macaroni and cheese on the table.

Consumers, free to make their own choices are obviously going to go to Dr. Leo. I would! I mean, that is quite a savings to receive the same care. Does that make sense so far?

Now after a while, I am either going to go out of business, or have to make changes. I concede the fact that I am no better than Dr. Leo, and therefore have to charge basically the same for my services, or maybe try to become more cost efficient and then undercut Dr. Leo, however, my ultimate goal is to make $1000 per office visit. It allows me to see fewer patients and go fishing more often. How does an evil capitalist like me achieve my desire?

I have to provide a BETTER service than Dr. Leo. I have start building a name for myself by healing a bigger percentage of clients than Dr. Leo. I have to become a more caring and intelligent doctor in order to heal my patients. I have to achieve the best possible outcome for anyone who visits my practice. Does anyone have a problem with that yet?

Now if I achieve this better service, I can begin to charge more. Sure, Dr. Leo is charging $35, but I am now providing superior service so some people will pay more to see me than him.

Now ask yourself, what was the incentive that made me a better doctor than you? Was it the idea that no matter how good of a doctor I was, I would still make the same amount of money, or was it the pursuit of my own financial interest that in the end, did a greater service to society? I mean, for a time anyway, I had to give superior service at the same low cost as you did, but I was rewarded later in life by being able to charge more for my service once my reputation got out there.

Ok, now lets change the universe to a system where government controls how much money Dr. Jafo and Dr. Leo makes. Would society gain a better Dr. Jafo? No it would have two mediocre doctors.

Now one could argue that doing good is a motivator to become a better doctor, and that is true for a small segment of people. If there is a reward of money and security, it brings more people to the table. Not only will we have "good people" helping others, but you will have evil capitalists like me, helping others.

Which system is better?

Oh Bernie Sanders is fighting that Post Office bill that has them $5 Billion in the red right now. Sure email and fedex is competing with them.

Mondragon uses capital at the service of labor. if that's Russian style communism, then count me in. Lots of people are looking for an economy that serves society rather than enslaves it. When it now takes 2 incomes to get by, we haven't made any progress since the days of Ike, when my Father raised 10 kids as an honest CPA. Try that today.

Oh Ikes views on The Giant Military Industrial Complex, and knowing Unions, Unemployment and S.S. were needed, makes up for his Foreign Policy blunder on Iran.

They set a record here for not having a Govt for over 500 days (around there) until just a few months ago. They pay higher taxes but they have a word Bergendy, which they are known for, that is a sense of enjoyment of the little things. In memories of travels around the States, when you can walk into a Club and play Badlands or Bad Moon Arisen kind of songs, and always get, ''You came to the right place stuff,'' that bergendy word is not common place back there. Its interesting to me that they have a Bank of the Post Office. That could go hand and hand with North Dakota's State Bank that other States are studying how to do. I could see it helping to fund Cities, Towns and States.

Oh on HC, its clear to me that DC has failed in its part of promoting the general welfare, by us not having affordable good HC. Vermont's Single Payer holds great promise, though it will be tough for a small State to be able to fund it properly to keep up with the costs of Meds. Being ranked 37th in the world, we could learn a thing or 2 from them evil European Socialist countries ranked above us.

Bernie Sanders never met a communist he didn't like. Do you seriously think Fedex and UPS are not competitors with the mail service? Trust me, I use them WAY before I use the post office to mail packages.



Ok, you're in, which bread line would you like to stand in, and which bunk in the gulag would you like to sleep in?



I am raising 5 kids quite comfortably. Had I not spent my youth scoring with babes and partying, I would probably have 10 by now. Just because YOU are losing at life, does not mean everyone else is.



I'm sorry, none of that paragraph makes any sense.. I don't mean from any kind of ideological point of view, it is just close to being a bunch of random words strung together..



I guess you didn't read my last post, therefore felt no need to respond? Again, it is NOT DC's responsibility to pay for YOUR healthcare. If you want someone to take care of you, instead of you doing it for yourself, find a church or commune where everyone there are volunteering to do so. Stop trying to put everyone under your yoke and enslave them to bring about your utopia. If your Mondragon model held a candle to the rest of the capitalist world, then there would be one around every corner.

Belgium set a record of not having a Govt for over 500 days. They are known for the word bergendy, which is enjoyment of the little things in life. When you can walk into a Club anywhere in America and play The Boss's Badlands, and people say ''you came to the right place'', that bergendy word is not common place in America.

They have a Bank of The Post Office, which to me could in the States, go hand in hand with North Dakota's State Bank which other States are studying how to do. That State Banking can help fund States.

Well it took 2 incomes to buy our condo in the 80s. That is still common place in the States.
No one is looking for free HC in the States, or any where. We want affordable good care.

I said that The Post Office had competition. But that GOP bill is pure union busting. Period.

The unemployment where Mondragon is in Spain, is at 1%, while the rest of Spain is 20% or higher. (That 1% stat came form a Solidarity Economy Facebook Group.) I'll take having capital at the service of labor. Only 1 of them can talk, and contrary to popular belief, its not money...