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heraclitis · **Joined:** Jul 17, 2010 **Posts:** 1375

DrCharbonneau wrote:

heraclitis wrote:

DrCharbonneau wrote:

but evidence might suggest that a planet just might be teeming with life before the star ignites.

This is just silly unless you are suggesting life unlike what has been observed on the planet Earth?
(Sorry, there I go again questioning things I find questionable)

Questioning is normal. Constantly demeaning someone, explicitly or implicitly, suggests a power trip and, as I've mentioned, mental illness. It's okay. It's something that has to be worked around, I can see, if we want to share with you. You seem reasonably articulate, but it's hard to believe you are an expert in chemistry, politics and now astrophysics.

Those Hubble shots have a story behind each one. NASA and the Hubble Team are good, but not perfect. They are missing some implicite geometry in the shots, it seems, still we are at their mercy to tell us straight up data such as the angle of the shots, keeping in mind most of them are of the atheist religion.

How's about answering the question I posed to you about the simple physics of Jello? It has a bit to do with showing you how a chunk of ice, evolving dust, and accreting "earth" could bear life more advanced than your unimaginative assessment declares, even devoid of an ignited, brilliant star.

I wish you the best, honest!

DrCharbonneau · **Joined:** Mar 15, 2012 **Posts:** 408

But you sidestep the Jello? :bugeyed:

leoburg · **Posted:** Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:52 am

As an arlonut, before even hearing these words in a Stairs song around 96, ''Back before the world began back before then'' had wondered, if life had not always existed.

DrCharbonneau · **Joined:** Mar 15, 2012 **Posts:** 408

leoburg wrote:

As an arlonut, before even hearing these words in a Stairs song around 96, ''Back before the world began back before then'' had wondered, if life had not always existed.

Eventually I hope to take this discussion into the time before time was. This would be when time when just a twinkle in the eye of Occam's Razor. This would be a time when there was simply, yet not so simply explsined. nothing but nothing but eternal, infinite nothing.

For the sake of the discussion, would you agree that, in the Jello example/thought experiment, the bowl will gel before the pot?

leoburg · **Posted:** Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:26 pm

Since space or such, always had and will always exist, there was never a time of nothing.

DrCharbonneau · **Joined:** Mar 15, 2012 **Posts:** 408

leoburg wrote:

Since space or such, always had and will always exist, there was never a time of nothing.

Can you offer evidence of that? It fails logic to imagine that everything was always there. Even if there existed, prior to 15GY ago, an anti-universe where in was out, nothing is something, fast is slow, etc., there would have had to be an anti-something for that nothing to evolve from.

leoburg · **Posted:** Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:51 pm

There was space, maybe not outer space, so to speak, but the space I'm meaning always was and always will be. So even that ''space'' could ever have been a nothing. Even if you crushed the whole universe into a ping pong ball, there will always be space outside of that ping pong ball.

DrCharbonneau · **Joined:** Mar 15, 2012 **Posts:** 408

leoburg wrote:

There was space, maybe not outer space, so to speak, but the space I'm meaning always was and always will be. So even that ''space'' could ever have been a nothing. Even if you crushed the whole universe into a ping pong ball, there will always be space outside of that ping pong ball.

What I'm wanting to establish is if the "space" you are referring to is void of so much as the tiniest, primary particle or even materialy functional energy. Are we both referring to a void outside of all matter?

leoburg · **Posted:** Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:00 pm

Everything is included in that space or area or matter.

How could we come out of nothing had not something existed before?

DrCharbonneau · **Joined:** Mar 15, 2012 **Posts:** 408

leoburg wrote:

Everything is included i that space or area or matter.

How could we come out of nothing had not something existed before?

That's what I'm driving at, only from the perspective of asking "How could everything always have been?" Are you familiar with vacuum fluctuation and the Casimir Effect? If not you might look that up or I can post a link. The theory that everything was formed from a vaccum has been around for like 80 years now.

I'm surprised Dave hasn't commented in this yet. This will get real interesting when we get to the God issue...

DrCharbonneau · **Joined:** Mar 15, 2012 **Posts:** 408

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy

This is a good starting place.

nortonkevin · **Posted:** Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:11 pm

DrCharbonneau wrote:

This will get real interesting when we get to the God issue...

Can't wait :roll:

Goofus · **Posted:** Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:51 pm

nortonkevin wrote:

DrCharbonneau wrote:

This will get real interesting when we get to the God issue...

Can't wait :roll:

All them gods are just about the same...

John Prine said that

Goofus · **Posted:** Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:52 pm

DrCharbonneau wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy

This is a good starting place.

For you maybe.

DrCharbonneau · **Joined:** Mar 15, 2012 **Posts:** 408

Goofus wrote:

DrCharbonneau wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy

This is a good starting place.

For you maybe.

Actually it seemed like leoburg was following, but things aren't always what they seem. Where would you think a good place to start would be?

To jump to the simple math as a pseudo-equation: infintite negative pressure (an infinite vacuum) x infinite negative heat (infinite cold) x time = positive mass (as in a material particle).

Any question on that?

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