great read to greet the day with...
Republican, Democrat makes no difference to me... if I had to pick one person to go talk with Repubs (or Dems) it would likely be you....

mostly 'cause you say so clearly what I'm thinkin'...

so as fun as it might be to start an argument.... don't know that I can on the points you brought up.... there may be others, though... who knows??....

I'm interested in more discussion on health care though.... just got a scare tactic email from a friend about Obama's plan hurtin everyone and to lobby against it.... seemed that was a sign some wealthy profiteer was getting a little scared.... not that I think it's so great, but maybe little better....
any ideas on a good approach to health care for this country??...

most progressives are pushing single payer, which is certainly more government intrusion than I would want.. but already have as I've been on Medicare and Medicaid for quite a few years and have to say that it is pretty user friendly....
there are a lot of drawbacks... like if you need equipment the rules for say a power scooter (Medicare) is that they won't pay for it unless you need it to ride around inside your home.... if you need it for the community....well
that's not their problem.... the effect being you have to stay home...theoretically.... it doesn't affect some folks (like me) low income, as Medicaid is still picking up the Medicare drop out stuff.... so I get my scooter... and at the higher end of the income scale, you probably can afford at least a used one.... that's a small example... no one wants to read the confusion of the prescription program.... yet it helps some people.....do people know that the premium for outpatient care is $96.00 a month??...

and they get to know so much about you... any notion of privacy becomes a dim memory.... i'm stunned by the questions they ask and you have to answer.... but you gotta....

with all that being said... I'm damn grateful, and would most likely have died or gone crazy without medicare and medicaid...
it's not perfect, but it gets you there....

and I don't know what else would.... certainly wouldn't want AIG running my health care program.... Who Do You Trust???... literally....

so it's not an argument, but a question ...

Killing your children by denying them treatment for cancer isn't freedom. That kid has his own right to be protected by the state if his parents are unable or unwilling to do so. And no, he's not old enough to decide for himself.

Make it more interesting. Say I can show you studies that are beginning to persuade doctors that certain kinds of cancer, specifically, lymphomas, are actually caused by sugar triggers and that diabetics are statistically and causally more likely to develop Non-hodgkins as a result of having out of control sugars in their blood?

Is it better to control costs by denying them treatments based on their own risky behavior of not denying themselves peanut-butter fudge cookies, or to spend more money on free blood test kits?

I'm not even talking about the payer system, just the kinds of rules one has to look at for preventive measures so well-liked in some circles.

This thread does have multiple topics all under one roof, don't it?

Sometimes to grasp an understanding of things, and to understand(maybe) what can be done to change(improve) things, it may be best to do what nature always does over time. That is to reduce things down to their basic elements.

Democratic Government:( Or in the case of the USA, a Republic)
This form(s) of goverment is really all the people getting together to decide how to run stuff, or the case of a republic, electing people to do that for us. Ideally, as it pertains to things that should require common effort, contributions and agreement.(E.G. Infrastructure, defense, a monetary system and laws to protect, not control, it's citizens. The government is US.

Money: Money does not exist in the natural world. It's a manmade concept. Resources exist in the natural world. A monetary system helps to decide how to distribute those resources.The goverment prints and issues the money, but the people should be able to have certain controls regarding monetary policy. There is a middle ground between pure capitalism and pure communism.

Personal liberty: The government didn't put us here, some higher power or cosmic accident did.Let's treat it that way.
In the case of the 13 year old cancer patient, that's a tough one.
Personal liberty in the case of an adult making treatment choices is one thing, a parent making choices for a 13 year old may be more of a projection of personal liberty onto another being.There are times when perhaps it's better that the village steps in on that one. I don't really know.

So, I didn't say much, but sometimes people(myself included) take some of these concepts and institutions for granted and breath life into them. We made them, we can change them, tweak them.....whatever.
My point was mostly to remember to break some things down to the aforementioned basic elements, and see if they may not look or seem different.Being a part time ponderer, that's what I do.(When I grow up, I hope to be a part time thinker, or at least I've been pondering it for some time now....)

Peanut butter fudge cookies. It's been so long since I had one that I've forgotten when the last time I had one was...

Well put, Larry. I think part of our problem (to maybe not be so longwinded as I was last night) is that we've allowed politics to take over government. If we could just exclude politicians from office, we might get somewhere.

I agree, Cheryl H, cookies are good. Peanut butter fudge, oatmeal fudge, fudge fudge...anyone who disagrees is unAmerican and should be set adrift on a boat to nowhere. I wouldn't make anyone eat something they didn't like or can't have, but they should admit in principle to not oppose fudge cookies. Sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" cookie policy.

I don't know if I agree with Len, though, about religious marriage in heaven. Maybe the government of heaven should stay out of the marriage business, too.

I just want to say love this string!

Sorry, I love this THREAD.

Peanut butter fudge cookies in your eye if you do not!

There IS something fundamentally wrong with anyone who doesn't LOVE peanutbutter-fudge cookies......even if I was so severely allergic to peanutbutter that contact with one precious crumb would mean certain death, I would still love them for their simple beauty and grace!

A Couple of things:

First to GregOhio - The issue I addressed had to do with whether or not you as an individual belong to the state, not whether treatment works or does not work. There are two separate issues here. Personally, I would not become a slave in order to extend my life with medical care, nor would I do so for the health of my kids or grandkids. As a nation, we've been through this before, the result was the revolution in 1776.

Second - These are serious issues that may sound like I am some conspiracy nut case, I assure you I am not. I may be nuts but I am also concerned in the extreme that there are events taking shape that will affect us all. And that if we don't educate ourselves now, and start talking about these things, we run the risk of dealing with dangers we have only begun to imagine. For only one example, read the link below from an internationally respected doc who has a huge following on the web:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/23/Journalist-Accuses-WHO-of-Plan-to-Commit-Mass-Murder.aspx

This is only one thing I read this morning before I even got to my freaking coffee... READ UP BOYS AND GIRLS... This is not a hoax... adg

Random disjointed thoughts from a random disjointed mind:

Don't worry about be called "nuts". I mean "they" said the same thing about The Wright Brothers, Charles Darwin, Charles Manson and Me. Which means "they" are only right about half the time.

WHO, bird flu? Scary stuff.It does sound like a James Bond movie, but in matters of money and power, much disgusts me and little surprises me.

Still not sure about this turning republican thing adg. If I had to put a label on it, it sounds like you are rather more libertarian in your views, at least the way things may be seen or defined today. Wanting to perhaps help change the republican party from the inside to what it once was may be admirable, but I fear futile.
I mean I can't see you "Running Down the Road" saying stuff like "Hey Killer, turn up the radio, it's time for Rush Limbaugh!" Or attending a black tie fund raiser for Sarah Palin and Dick Cheney. But who knows.......I mean they say to keep your friends close and your enemies closer....right?
But of course labels are labels and have no substance.

Some stuff is like what I was saying before. Some of the institutions that were created by people take on a life of their own. Which is to say that many of them become what the machines were/are/will be in The Terminator movies. They run us and not the other way around as was the original intention.

Now, the WHO and the UN in cahoots with big pharma? Scary to be sure if true. But the problem as it may be falls on the failure or corruption of the WHO and the UN as well as the guilt of big pharma. Some might then say whay do we need those institutions(WHO & the UN)? There may be a fine line between libertarianism and anarchy.Human nature being what it is, and big bussiness and some governments being what they are, one would hope that institutions such as the WHO and the UN would act as public advocates and not lapdogs of the powerful.Naive? Perhaps.
Oh well, I've only had one coffee and it's the day after poker night with the guys, so I don't know how clearly I'm thinking.

Let's just stay away from these personal attacks again! I don't like peanut butter! Not in the rain,on a train, here, there or anywhere. I don't like the taste, the smell or how it slows me down trying to wash dishes. My grandmother didn't like it, I don't like it, and my son doesn't like it. And if Rush Limbaugh was the only one not serving it I'd sit down and eat with him.

So, Arlo, you mean to tell us that you went from the Group W bench to voting for McCain/Palin? Next I guess is the GOP will co-opt your dad's "Do Re Mi" as its theme song. I hope that coffee you're drinking is Folger's, at least. Aren't Republicans on the endangered list in the Berkshires (whole state, for that matter)?


mikey

Introducing a mutagen into a stable system is one way to induce fast evolution. The trick is to ensure it changes exactly the right hereditary material or it simply spins up a cancer.

I'm not dismayed that Arlo joined the Republican Party because at the same time he says that he introduced issues he says should concern Republicans. Like Larry, it sounds more like a Libertarian agenda but it was precisely the adoption of third party platform issues that put Nixon in the White House, so it can be done. The Republicans want their old jobs back and to get them they are going to have to come up with something more appealing than Fear The Black Guy or Fear The Health Care. Whatever. They need a platform of issues that cut across demographics and regions. They need a national platform. Right now they are spinning up fear which means they didn't learn a lot from that drubbing they took last fall.

But a new platform is what they require and moving them toward one that is more what you want is the way to get the other party to respond with something even more like what you want unless they go off on multiple distractions to keep anyone from getting anything except more of the same. THAT is the clinical definition of cancer.

I want to look at the article Arlo posted in more depth. It has a low probability of being a real threat but it is a weird world and even a low probability is worth investigating when the threat is that serious.

Hahahaha - Lemme Be Clear (thought I was to begin with) I didn't join the Republican Party because I wanted to be like them, vote like them or become them. I joined because I saw an opportunity to help them change into what the USA needed - a voice to speak out against the lunatic fringe (left or right). Someone within the Republican Party has to start speaking up about the crazies at the base. I didn't figure on being one of the first.

When the base of the triangle is equal to or greater than either of the other sides, it stands a good chance of staying around. When the base is at any of the intersections, it stands a good chance of tipping over one way or the other. Therefore a strong party has a lot of folks at the base. The fewer there are, the more likely it'll fall over. Everyone with the party moves as it falls - except the last guy! They can fall around him to the left or to the right, but the last guy just stands there. My clever plan is to be that guy!

Truth is I'm not much of a political animal at all. I just found a different place to be yelling the same old stuff I've been talking about for the last 40 years. It's my hope that if everyone starts yelling loud enough on both sides of the isle everywhere, maybe something will get through. There's something to be said for listening too, but I'm beginning to believe I've heard just about enough garbage to last a while, and if there's one thing I know about - It's garbage.

adg